3 Spiritual Diseases Plaguing Our Personhood – Episode 199

Transcript

Dr. Greg:
Hello and welcome to the Being Human Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Greg Bottaro, and today I’ve got a special guest from across the world. We have Alex Havard, who’s coming from Moscow. We’re on a Zoom call on a call across the world, and so hopefully the technology is gonna work out for us today. We say a little prayer that the Holy Spirit is keeping the connection alive, but he is a brilliant thought leader and leadership coach and a thought leader in really all things that have anything to do with anything we talk about. As soon as I started to see his material, I was blown away how many connection points there were, and he’s got a recent book out that we’re going to talk about. But he does this brilliant overview of world philosophy leading up till today and it really gives us clear understanding of where we are today. And so I want to dig into that, but again, more into what he’s experienced and where he’s at. So right after this.

AI-Generated transcript of this episode:

I spent the last 10 years learning how to help people using the best techniques available in psychology, integrated with the Catholic faith. Now, we’ve figured out that there’s a better way to help people than just slapping a Catholic label on the same secular model of therapy you find anywhere else. The real question is how will we make this shift to a new model of truly Catholic accompaniment, keeping the psychological sciences in mind while opening up to a more human and more effective approach? This podcast is here to give you the answer. Join me and follow along as I take you behind the scenes of what this new model looks like, using recorded audio from sessions, working with my team, with colleagues, and even directly with clients. My name is Dr. Greg Bottaro, and I want to welcome you to the Being Human Podcast.

Dr. Greg:
All right, welcome Alex.

Alex:
Welcome, Greg.

Dr. Greg:
I’m so glad this is working out for this connection here. I don’t think I’ve had an interview as far as we are right now, so hopefully this is gonna work out. Tell us a little bit about where you actually are right now.

Alex:
Well, I’m in Moscow, I’ve been living in Moscow for the last 17 years. Before that I was living in Finland 18 years and before that I was living in France 20, 28 years. So I’ve seen the world.

Dr. Greg:
Okay, yeah, I guess so. And your latest book, you’re doing, you’re looking at a lot of different philosophies, and are you, were you how did you end up in Moscow? I was wondering, if would there was a research for the book that you were studying or how did you end up there?

Alex:
I’m a French, Russian, Georgian by blood.

Dr. Greg:
Ok.

Alex:
But my dear parents, escaped the Bolshevik revolution 100 years ago. But I received so much from my grandparents in terms of culture, human virtues, values and faith that since I was very young I had a desire to come back to my grandparents. So I’ve been, after Russia there was, Russia was freed from communism. That’s 30 years ago. I had a desire to come back and that’s why 12 years ago when it became possible, I just moved to Russia and from Russia I moved all over the world. It’s a good place also because it’s the very center, you can go to Asia very quickly, you can go to America quickly, to Africa quickly, to Europe quickly. You can move very quickly wherever you want when you live in Moscow, it’s really the center of the world.

Dr. Greg:
Really centered. Yeah, so it was more so that your blood brought you back to the center and then from there you had access to really studying these world philosophies, not the other way around.

Alex:
Yeah, I studied those philosophers because I understood those guys had a very big impact on what’s in the situation we’re living in now. So I’ve been thinking about those [inaudible] for years since I was very young and one day I had a full picture of this [inaudible]. And then I understood that I had to speak about the rationalist, the sentimentalist, the [inaudible], the voluntarist, because these are those people who already brought what we have the caps that we are living in now. And then I had to think about who are those philosophers who practice the unity of heart, mind, and will.

Dr. Greg:
Uhm.

Alex:
Those it help us get out of that. And I wrote about those people. This is the second part of my book. So there is two parts in this last book, the destroyers, those who brought evil, and the builders, those who are an answer to this problem. And we have to listen to them, we have to study them because they were integrated human beings. Integrated because their heart, their mind and their world was working together hand in hand. That’s why I love them. They’re full.

Dr. Greg:
Well, it’s really wonderful and I want to really break into that because there’s so much that overlaps with what we do here and our whole project for the whole Catholic Psych mission is integration. And ah, you know, I don’t know if you or someone on your team came across what we do here or if this is just a happy accident, but, you know starting to read through in your latest book The Seven Prophets, when you sort of bring things around to this idea of who brought, who’s ushering in the solution to the problems that we have in the world right now. I mean, this reads like something out of our mission statement and a very clear philosophical understanding of where we’re coming from and how we got to where we are and where we need to go. And bringing all those parts of the person together really stands at the center of that.

Alex:
Yeah, I think the guys that really represents, that really represent by themselves the world we live in is of course the rationalist – Descartes, the sentimentalist – [inaudible] Rousseau, and the voluntarist – Nietzsche. So these are three names we’ll should never forget because these people were partial dealing beings because their heart or their mind or their intellect was not working. So something went wrong with them and then they could not produce an integrated philosophy. They were partial being through that were producing a partial philosophy and partiality is very dangerous. It’s an ideology.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Alex:
In an ideology, there is a part of truth, but it’s a very small part. And then that’s why it’s attractive. That’s why rationalism is attractive, that’s why sentimentalism is attractive, that’s why voluntarism is attractive. There is a part of truth there, but it’s just small truth. And then because it’s not of any truth, there is no integration that it is an ideology and it becomes very, very dangerous and it is very dangerous. And in fact, the world will live in nowadays it’s very much a world of sentimentalism and voluntarism. I mean the voluntaries are the people in ideology, the gender people. The gender people are very much Nietzschean people. They’re Nietzschean 100%.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Alex:
Then you have the victims, which are, who are the sentimentalists. The sentimentalist are the people of the heart. It’s a [inaudible]. I feel that I am. I feel that I am. So these people of course are manipulated by the people in ideology. People have the will know very well how to manipulate people, of the people feelings you know. But the people feelings can be manipulated because they don’t have brain, because they don’t have intellect. But in the end of the day, what unites, I would say, the people of the ideology and depicted which are the mobs, the sentimentalist people. It’s the lack of [inaudible], the lack of intellect. Descartes destroyed the end of the dead logos, destroy the capacity, to [inaudible] the truth, the capacity for objective truth. After Descartes, there is no objective truth. And everything becomes subjective.

Dr. Greg:
Right.

Alex:
So what unites through the people in ideology and the victims, it is that you [inaudible] believe it any objective truth and when you don’t have any objective truth, you have only two choices. You survive reason is not working anymore. So no intellect, no [inaudible] the only thing that is important is either my will or my feelings.

Dr. Greg:
Yup.

Alex:
You get it? So you choose your plan. If you want to be the ideology, you choose the will. It’ll become people of the gender, people of the ideology, the Bolsheviks, the Nazi people that whatever you want. But if you say, well this is not my world. And I am more heart man, half a woman. So then you choose the [inaudible] sentimentalist and then you just have feelings and the feelings, your feelings can change every day, you know, and you are victims of course of those who manipulate you because it’s very easy to manipulate emotions.

It’s much more complicated to manipulate emotion than to manipulate ideas. You know, in the past we still believe in the truth, so people manipulated ideas. Now, we just manipulate emotions and feelings. So that’s quite easy at the end of the day, much more easier than to manipulate ideas. So that’s a situation will event. That’s why it’s very interesting to look at this because when you look at those three philosophers, you discover that you can’t, you can’t give up historical account of the world from the part of view of anthropology, you know.

Dr. Greg:
Hmm.

Alex:
Anthropology. The rationalists bring subjectivism. Subjectivism, brought sentimentalism, okay? And the broader of sentimentalists have appeal those who want to manipulate them because they have a very strong will and its [inaudible] people of the [inaudible]. So you can reinterpret the history of philosophy and the history of the world from this point of view. And it’s not boring at all because it’s a holistic vision and then [inaudible], that’s why many people told me, “Alex, I know nothing about philosophy, many books of philosophies I’ve read, I just gave up to five minutes, but I read your book till the end, your 200 pages. Why? Because it’s amazingly practical. It’s amazingly understandable and simple.” And I thought that I had to do it simple and clear because in the end of the day, those people are clear ideas and unfortunately people of the academy have made things very complicated.

Dr. Greg:
Exactly.

Alex:
[inaudible] complicated. Because guys are not complicated. I mean Nietzsche, Rousseau, Descartes they’re not complicated people. One you, you can speak about really a complicated way and understandable way and I thought the academy unfortunately has done this for years. But in 10 pages you can explain it very well to people that have never opened a book of philosophy. What’s this about? Speaking about the life of the guy and speaking about the philosophy that was produced by that poor life.

Dr. Greg:
Right.

Alex:
People understand there was a relationship between that guy and that philosophy. This philosophy,

Dr. Greg:
It really sells people short. It sells people short because they, you know, I think a lot of people could understand a lot of the simplicity, but the academics keep this sort of veil of this esoteric vault. Locked around some of these ideas and then present something that’s “Oh, well leave it to us to understand and we’ll just tell you how to think.” And meanwhile, it’s absurd some of the conclusions that are drawn from these ideologies, but nobody would even know that.

Alex:
Yup, I agree with you. So first of all, my list was, my goal was to make some things simple so that everyone can understand that and that people understand well. I have to know those three guys because I don’t want to be one of them. [inaudible] chapter I explaining in a small paragraph in about 10 lines, what does it mean to live according to that person. Who to live according to Descartes, you know. What does it mean to live according to [inaudible] Rousseau? What does it mean to live according to Nietzsche? When you see this, you understand if you are like this or not. And you understand who are your friends or colleagues or people you know that are really are like this. And you can help them because these are spiritual disease, you know.

Dr. Greg:
Uhm.

Alex:
These are spiritual diseases. Rationalism, sentimentalism, voluntarism, these are spiritual disease.

Dr. Greg:
Well say more about that. Say more about that.

Alex:
Yeah, people that spiritual disease means that it’s spiritually malady. It means that if you’re rational, if you’re a rationalist, sorry, then you have that rational. Because your intellect has destroying your will and your heart, you know, is your will and your heart are saved by the intellect, which means that you are intellect in the end of the day because it is observing everything. It is not real intellect. It is not interacting with the world and with the heart. So there is no place for the heart. It’s a disease for as the rationalist of people who cannot enter into contact with the reality because they’re obsessed in one thing, the knowledge of [inaudible]. They don’t want like to, they don’t like to be in touch with things. They want to know what can I know intellectually about that thing? What can I know intellectually about Christ [inaudible]? So it’s not about knowing Christ. It’s about what can I know intellectually about Christ. As for instance, this book [inaudible] the French guy who wrote a book, Jesus [inaudible] who is the most, who is the most famous bestseller I think that, [inaudible]. It’s a bad book. It started about [inaudible], it’s about [inaudible] intellectually through mathematics about Jesus Christ.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Alex:
And also these people think that they know things, but because they are not in touch with things with through their heart, they found more [inaudible].

Dr. Greg:
It’s like the historical critical method of scripture scholarship. They want to pull apart every little detail about what it was like to live 2000 years ago in Jerusalem or what this means or what this custom was from or why it was this or that. It misses the entire point of the gospel.

Alex:
Yes, they miss the point of contact and if you cannot understand Christ through [inaudible] or through rationalism. You can understand Him if your heart is working and if your heart is not working, you don’t have intuition. So you don’t see Christ. It just, in work intellectually what it is that you can know about Him through the intellect, but there are ways of knowing that are not the intellect. There is the heart. The heart is a powerful instrument of knowledge.

Dr. Greg:
Well let me ask you a question real quick. This is a little bit of a side tangent, but I’m curious what you think about this. Are you familiar with the work of Jordan Peterson? I don’t know how worldwide he is.

Alex:
Yup, yup, I know Jordan. I know Jordan and I think he does a good work. He does a great work Jordan, I want, I hope [inaudible] tendency towards being the rationals, he’s very rational, very, very rational.

Dr. Greg:
And it seems like anytime he talks about Christ or about his faith you know, his seeking for answers. I always am left with that same feeling. He’s thinking about and seeking to learn about Christ, about who this person as a figure, as an archetype. But I don’t know how much he’s actually encountered or I don’t think he’s actually encountered Christ yet as a person [inaudible] human encounter.

Alex:
He can. He can because he is very, as we say, he’s very sincere with his intellect. He’s more sincere, but if I would give him advice, is to let his heart speak a little bit more.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Alex:
When he will come, could I come to Jesus through mathematics? That’s obvious.

Dr. Greg:
And maybe that’s the first step, but we’re certainly, it doesn’t take us all the way.

Alex:
Yeah, I mean everything we says is Jordan is powerful, is very attractive. I mean people listen to him because there is a big logos, there is an incredible rationality, and, but there is a certain tendency towards the rationalism because I’m not sure the heart is working 100%. But the capacity of his heart is enormous. And if I would be with him, I would tell him, “Let your heart speak more and then you will find balance. And you’ll be just incredible.”

Dr. Greg:
Uhm.

Alex:
[inaudible] I would tell him, “You’re on the way and I prefer you to go till the end, but you are on the way. You’re a good way and you do a good job. But don’t stop. Don’t stop because you have to empower your heart and then you just,”

Dr. Greg:
It’s amazing to think about how powerful he can be with his radical allegiance to truth and you know some of this integrationist philosophy here in the states, personalist like Ken Schmitz or John Crosby, these are American professors, philosophers, that they would say that there’s the full integration is to study and to come to know the truth about the good. And goodness is a different transcendental that has a different, it absorbs the whole person, especially the heart and along with beauty. But it’s like if Peterson will orient himself towards truth and then truth about the good, it carries him all the way across the threshold and he can enter into it then as radically submissive as he is and aligned and allegion to the truth, you’re not gonna be able to stop him evangelizing Christ. I mean that’s going to be a whole another level I think. But anyway, we can help and pray.

Alex:
And also keep in mind that you know, you have certain people that are tendency towards more rationalism, excuse me. Rationality obviously are more people of the will. You have a third kind of people that are more people of the heart. Those distinction is good because people need to be different. I have no problem with people that are more people of the intellect, but what I tell them is stay in contact with your will and with your heart. The important is to be always contact. Interaction between the three things is absolutely necessary.

Speaker 3:
Yes.

Alex:
The problems when you be you disconnected with one of the two other spiritual faculty, that this is a big problem. But to be more person of the heart is good, to be more a person in the intellect is good, to be more a person in the world also good.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Alex:
I think this multiplicity of human beings is very important. It’s a bit the same thing as the multiplicity of biological temperaments. We are different. That’s very good. In southern countries there is more many friends, the intellect is very, the education is very much education at the intellect. So it’s not surprising that the intellect almost at the first place. That in Germany the will is very much emphasized, emphasized by it. This is Protestantism, Calvinism, the will, will will you know, my merit sound by will of my heart. I have to go against my heart to have a lot of merits for God. This is Calvinism 100% you know, destroy my heart, my heart it’s bad. So the more I go against my heart, the more I’m a saint. Well this is very strong, this is a very strong in German. So this is the culture of the will, you know. And then you have all the Eastern Christianity of the [inaudible] Russians, it’s very much a culture of the heart, obviously. It’s a more culture of the heart. So when you read the Dostoevsky, Chekhov, the Tolstoy, you see why those guys are very universal as fundamentally because the heart is only present there, always there at the first place, okay? So that’s why if you have produced I think a great psychology like Tolstoy and great anthropology Dostoevsky. And people like to link to read them. I mean there people read them a lot and I think it is because the heart is that the first place. But from time to time you can say, “well the world is missing or the internet missing, but the heart is there.” So each country, I would say each culture has  its vision and this complementarity is beautiful. Beautiful.

Dr. Greg:
Well and I love reading to the last section there. You bring up these builders as you call them, bringing back together the complementarity between these different parts of the person and really paving the path forward for us. Talking about Pascal and Kierkegaard, Dostoevsky and Soloviev. Is that how you pronounce it? How would you pronounce

Alex:
[inaudible] is “Solov-yof”

Alex:
I mean people don’t [inaudible] really much, but John Paul II and Benedict XVI could just love him. They loved that they read a read again what he wrote, he had a beautiful tale called the Tale of the Antichrist, which is something each one of us has to read because it’s about what’s happening now with the world. And he wrote it before he died. A few years, one year before he died towards 1897, 199-, 1898, 99. He died in 1-19-0-0, 1900, the same [inaudible]. And he was great. He was incredible. He was a real prophet. So first five guys, what unites them, it is that the heart, the intellect and their will are working together. To the beginning by the first of them, which is I think the French Blaise Pascal. If you look at Pascal, you see he’s really the guy of the heart. He’s the guy who tell the Christians of Christians, look at the Bible. You see that the heart is a spiritual faculty. So why do you tell us that the only spiritual faculties are the intellect in the world. So there’s Pascal is the guy who restored the heart as a spiritual faculty in Thomism? In middle ages, the heart is not a spiritual faculty. The heart is like in Aristotle, it’s the place of the emotions. And emotions, it’s animal. Animals like emotions, the same as human beings, you know. Fear, wrath, whatever you want. These are the 11 passions. You have emotions according to Thomas Aquinas and this is [inaudible] place of the heart. But for the Middle Ages philosopher, the heart is not a spiritual faculty. The spiritual fact that these are only the intellect and the world. And the truth is what Pascal [inaudible] says, “Guys, this is wrong. The heart is three things. The heart is physical, it’s obvious. The heart is emotional, psychological heart, emotional with the place of the emotions, as you say. But the heart is also a spiritual faculty.”

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Alex:
The spiritual faculties are not [inaudible] are purely spiritual. the [inaudible] in the world. The heart is the center of the person because the heart is both physical and spiritual and you have to have a center and that center can be only the heart because you have a body, you have a Spirit.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Alex:
Your center can be, have to, has to be something that is both. And only thing in you that is built, it’s the heart. That’s why the heart is the center of the person. The world is not the center. The intellect is not the center. You are not your will, you are not your intellect. You are,

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Alex:
Your heart. This is powerful and this is the great Blaise Pascal.

Dr. Greg:
It’s not only, it’s so powerful for where we are today in our culture, but also it’s an end of an understanding of our Christian vocation. And if we, from a Franciscan or Carmelite mysticism, it’s through the darkening of the intellect that we actually grow spiritually. It’s when we pass through the dark night and we actually let our adherence to and our self-understanding through our intellectual faculties actually we leave those behind and instead of relying on them, they become darkened for a while that we have to, something else in us has to carry us through when we don’t actually understand anymore and we hit that wall of our own limitations and what is actually in us moving through those darknesses. It’s the heart. That’s the center of us.

Alex:
There’s not so simple because the darkness those guys speaks about is both what they call the darkness of the senses or in the darkness of the soul. These are two different things. So it’s a darkness of the heart as well as it is the darkness of the senses.

Dr. Greg:
The second one, right? That’s like the fullest all the way in.

Alex:
[inaudible] Yes, some people there have passed through the darkness of the, of the senses and you have people that have passed through the darkness of the senses and the darkness of the soul. So these are a bit two different things. But we should not ask for us the darkness of the senses because God does want you to enjoy truth with a heart. It’s to enjoy life. It’s not to be [inaudible] so we shouldn’t asked God for that darkness.

Dr. Greg:
No, no. It’s just interesting to see that in the lives of the saints there are periods of time in which what they understand becomes darkened and shadowy and it’s, they sort of in order to move forward you have to sort of let go of letting the intellect be this guide that drives them through. There’s an emerging of something else within the person and it’s not will. And I like how you said that too. It’s not just pure will.

Alex:
It’s the faith. It’s the only thing that moves them is the faith. So they have the sense is not working, the interact is not working. The only thing that’s working, it’s the faith and the world to do God’s will. That’s so simple. So they don’t really interact anymore. They have real heart anymore. That’s why their life is an ordeal. That the thing that they have is faith, which is the incredible light. They have the sort of their light of faith and they have the will because that is the love doing God’s will.

Dr. Greg:
I think this is really

Alex:
[inaudible] is not there because the intellect is not there, you know.

Dr. Greg:
Yes, and it’s so challenging.

Alex:
It’s not a normal situation. We should ask God for that. If God sends this to us, it’s in order to purify us for different things. In the case of Sister Prudence Allen, it was not for this, it was because He wanted her to experience the abandonment of the [inaudible] forced. He wanted her to be one of them. He wanted her to be one of them. Though Theresa experienced this not as a purification like in the life of many saints. She experienced those because it was the way of the organization she got as project through her. So she had to be identified with the abandoned, absolutely abandonment of the poorest of the poor. That’s why God has wanted this absolute abandonment of the intellect and of the heart that’s nothing left. So there are different reason for which God is okay what this idea of the dark night of the senses and the dark night for the [inaudible].

Dr. Greg:
Yes. And I think, you know, even if we don’t all experience it, at least understanding it as it is sort of in the abstract and seeing examples in the saints who have gone through it, reorients our own understanding of ourselves. So that we may be come to rely less on a certain kind of understanding and then we end up in a place where it gives further clarity to this integration that you’re speaking of. And it brings the heart back into its proper place in relationship with the intellect and the will. And then we can at least appreciate hopefully with the full enjoyment of those things if that’s God’s will. But we can appreciate how they interact together and it gives us a fuller sense of our own humanity.

Alex:
You have to look at, for instance, we were speaking about Blaise Pascal. We spoke about the heart in Pascal, but at the same time, look this guy was a bright intellect. He was the brightest guy of the 16th century. He met many discoveries. He was an incredible mathematician, practical mathematician, one of the best in the history of humanity. And at the same time it was a matter of the world. I mean his life, you see it’s pure ascetism or a asceticism, I don’t know what you say in English. So this guy was really lived ascetic life. So his world was very strong. He was very mortified. He suffered a lot in the community. He died was 38 years old, you know. Died of fatigue at 38 years old. So his rule has been working quite a lot during his life. So his brain was brilliant, one of the most brilliant intellect of the 16th century. At the same time his heart with extraordinary and that is what was there. So he is the first philosopher who is familiar, really an integrated person and that’s why I like to listen to him. He has something to say to me because he was a real man, 100% human being. And his philosophy is not partial philosophy. It stop the whole truth.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah, that’s really beautiful. And it’s interesting how I think he’s most famous for Pascal’s wager, which is as rationalist as you can get. And then you realize there’s actually a lot more to him than simply an equation for why it makes more sense to believe in God.

Alex:
Yeah, that’s ah, yeah the guy is very attractive and his life is out. He’s very attractive because he’s not a man working in a cabinet. He is working in an office. He is always in touch with people. He is brilliant. So you really static and you discover that well you can have a similar life. And then after that you come to Kierkegaard. Kierkegaard is powerful mind also. That’s the time you see is a man of heart. People love today to read what he wrote about this existential philosophy. It’s very attractive because it gives that meaning to your life. He says philosophers write many books, but we don’t describe with those philosophers behind those books. But when you read about philosophy, you’ll know who I am. I find by [inaudible]. I am the object of my philosophy. So the center of my philosophy, it’s me. It’s not egotism, it’s not subjectivism, not at all. It’s about bringing that subjectivity. But subjectivity is not subjectivism because Kierkegaard believed really in an objective truth. What is stated is that you are a person. You have to discover yourself. You have to understand what is a human being. You have to discover your dignity against this totalitarian state that is turning around. And you have to write about yourself. You have to study yourself. It is a philosophy of the eye and there is a philosophy of the honor that is very honest, that is very attractive. Self-knowledge. You have to get to know yourself. So I think he is a man of heart. And the same time he’s a man of intellect, the same time was brilliant.

Dr. Greg:
He was a, was he a Calvinist?

Alex:
No, I think he was a Lutheran.

Dr. Greg:
Oh, Lutheran. And I think I was right. He was pretty tortured by his conscience that he was really harsh with himself.

Alex:
He was not pretty torture with conscience, but he was looking for what we call existential. He wanted to make existential chores. He was worried about conformism of Christians in his time, in his place. Conformation. Conformism, people who still living out of Christianity but they are not really Christians, you know.

Dr. Greg:
I mean it’s to be so close to the understanding of the person and to bring the heart into it in such a positive way, but then also to not be fully sort of integrated within a Catholic perspective of the goodness of the full core of the person and the image of God. And then that being sort of integrated with the mercy of God. I could see that being a difficult path.

Alex:
Yeah, I think he’s not a Catholic. He is not a Catholic, but he is a fantastic example of a great person that has a philosophy that is absolutely good. And the guy is not a hundred percent, he’s not a Catholic. He doesn’t not deny the intellect. He doesn’t deny all the intellect.

Dr. Greg:
Right, right.

Alex:
All the intellect. So we cannot say that he goes against Christianity. Not at all. He’s just trying to find a way for Christian to get outside this conformism and had to become more as themselves you know, and the conformism speaks about can be really conformism applied to Catholics.

Dr. Greg:
Right.

Alex:
About the Lutheran’s [inaudible] place, he was living in Denmark in its time in the 19th century. But at the end of the day when you read Kierkegaard, you understand, well, those can be applied to Catholics at the same time in Paris. So it’s not about being a Lutheran. I think it is outside this distinction of religions. It’s a real philosophy. It’s a philosophy of the “I, who am I”, you know, to rediscover you. The meaning of the person in a place where in a time when the state is overwhelming in terms of authoritarianism. And I think after Bolshevism and after fascism and after all that’s coming now in the world I think [inaudible] is very, very, very interesting to read. Very useful to read.

Dr. Greg:
Yes. I couldn’t agree more. And this whole lineup really is a really great compliment to what we need to do right now. And I want to get to Soloviev because he’s not somebody that I’ve really known much about and reading his thought, I was thinking this is so deeply Catholic. And then seeing how it really lays out a foundation and is totally consistent with John Paul II’s personalism and his philosophy. And then realizing and then you have it in there how John Paul II loves reading his work. So I really wanted to dig into him a little bit more as well.

Alex:
Alright. Well I would say well before Fyodor Dostoevsky, when Dostoevsky and Soloviev worked with friends, Soloviev was 20 years younger.

Speaker 3:
Okay?

Alex:
They were friends. They lived in St. Petersburg for a while together and they went together to the monasteries. to see the [inaudible], I meant the great counselor, spiritual advisor of the time. So they met church together to the monasteries. They were very good friends, Dostoevsky and Soloviev. The thing is that Dostoevsky, Dostoevsky’s vision is a bit different. But Dostoevsky is a great Christian who understood the problem of humanity, the problem of freedom. The world was Dostoevsky’s main idea, it is that in the world that’s coming, people will surrender more freedom. They will give their freedom to the state, to the Great Inquisitor. The Great Inquisitor will give them an exchange money, power, pleasures.

Dr. Greg:
[inaudible]

Alex:
And [inaudible] Dostoevsky tells us this is what’s coming. And I tell you guys you have to be very wise. Look at what’s happening around. Don’t surrender your dignity. Don’t surrender your freedom of children of God, for what the state, the authoritarian state, the Antichrist wants to offer them. I think it’s brilliant because that’s what’s happening now. That’s why Dostoevsky is a great prophet. This is in the book of The Brothers Karamazov. She has some beautiful pages, some beautiful pages called the Legend of the Great Inquisitor. This is something we should read 10 times to understand what’s happening here and you know  it’s a fantastic dialogue between Christ was put in jail but the Great Inquisitor,

Speaker 3:
Uhm

Alex:
The Great Inquisitor tells them, “Look, I’m going to burn you at the stake tomorrow because you’re a criminal. You said you love people but in fact you didn’t love them. You gave them freedom and freedom is the burden. People don’t want freedom. So I looked earlier as a stake, I, the Great Inquisitor, I understood people, I took their freedom. You know what I mean? I took their freedom. And I give them everything they want. And they love me. And if we have always felt such freedom as now, what they have given to me their freedom.” So it’s fantastic. I mean, the guys telling Christ, “Christ your criminal.” Why do you give freedom? Why did you give freedom to people? They don’t want it. It’s just fantastic because exactly what’s happening now, a lot of people have this expectation to deny freedom and they don’t want that freedom. They say freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, every, every single minute, but in fact what they have in mind is not freedom. It does not exist. It’s not about an existential choice to good and evil. It’s a choice between choosing an apple or an android. [inaudible] today Coca Cola or a beer.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Alex:
This is we speak about. So we have no visual about the world of freedom. And freedom is not a burden, but the Antichrist knows exactly what’s happening in the heart of people, you know. Those people, they really don’t talk [inaudible]. It’s a burden. It’s a freedom, freedom, freedom. But they hate it. They have freedom. They would like to be zombies because it’s very easy to leave as a zombie. Pleasure in whatever you want. Pleasure, money, whatever you want, but just don’t give me freedom. I don’t want the life of the Spirit, you know. So Dostoevsky was a great, he was a fantastic prophet because he forced so all that love I want other 150 years ago and the book “The Karamazov Brothers”, which is the book he wrote before dying, the last book he wrote. There has many possible that book that should be read by modern people every week to be sure that we understand very well where we are now, you know.
Then after him, of course then Soloviev. Soloviev came after him, he was 20 years younger than Dostoevsky as I say, but Soloviev didn’t believe much. I mean at 48 years old, he was already dead. He worked so much. When he wrote “Tale of the Anti-Christ”, I mean he was certainly [inaudible] that the antichrist is not that the devil was so unhappy with that, that he died. He died at 48 years old. Exhausted. The doctors, didn’t understand why this guy died. She was exhausted and he said, “It’s the devil who is killing me. I’m 48 years old, I’m very healthy. I’m killed by someone else.” So he was killed by the devil who was absolutely unhappy of that thing that he wrote “The Tale of the Anti-Christ”. Those things Soloviev has an incredible life. He was very close to the Catholic, he was trained of universal Christianity. He understood perfectly that the function of Peter and he understood that Peter cannot be taken out from the gospel, that the Pope is a successor of Peter. We can like the Pope or not like him. It’s not a problem. The question is that the Pope is Peter and you cannot deny this. It’s obviously said everywhere in the gospel. It’s everywhere in the tradition. And so in the end of the day, he is a Catholic. He’s a Catholic, but he’s a western Catholic. He said, “I want to be the founder of the universal church. That I want to be a Eastern guy. I want to be a Western guy. Like education, my culture is very different. I belong to the East. I am a Western person. I am universal. I want to go with my two loves the eastern and western one. So he was a good guy. He was universally, he was the absolute man. I would say he was full of virtues. He had a very sacrificed life. He had an incredible brain. I think he is the only good Russian philosopher, you know, is famous around the world. People study so [inaudible] law, I mean or [inaudible] was say that there has never been such a right mind after Thomas Aquinas except that even Soloviev. So he compared even Soloviev to Thomas Aquinas in terms of what they’ve been producing in the holistic vision they have of just philosophy. So Soloviev is an incredible busy guy with a heart, he was a very mystical [inaudible] person. So like people in the East are very mystical. He was very intuitive, very mystical, very feminine. And at the same time he had an incredible will. He was very rational and he said everything from my mysticism that cannot be transformed into rational words, has no meaning and you should listen to God.

Dr. Greg:
Uhm.

Alex:
So he was [inaudible]. He was looking for these interactions, you know, between the intellect and the heart of the world. That’s why I love to read him. I love his philosophy because you see everywhere, the heart is there at the beginning of everything, but the intellect of the world are place in there. There are in interactions with the heart. So I think modern people should read the Soloviev or at least to read books about him or at least to read my book where you have 10 pages or 12 pages of Soloviev. I made it very simple for you guys, very simple. So you will want it because Soloviev [inaudible] was a saint.

Dr. Greg:
Oh, that’s amazing. That’s an amazing intro for sure. And definitely start with your book. And do you have it um, do you teach about him anywhere? You have a website, we have a bunch of courses and your books are all available. Do you have any specific places where you talk more about him in particular?

Alex:
Alright, everything I wrote in that book, the Seven Prophets,

Dr. Greg:
Yup.

Speakerr 2:
The chapter on the Soloviev, so this is where I condensed all my knowledge and my reflection about this guy during the last 30 years. So that it’s enough after you can look at the internet, you can find a lot of things

Dr. Greg:
Sure, sure.

Alex:
These defenders, but if you want to have 15 pages, the whole vision of the guy, you have this in the Seven Prophets.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah, that’s great. Well the website is alexhavard.com. We’re gonna link to that in the show notes so people can find you. Your book is, is it actually released yet?

Alex:
Yes,

Dr. Greg:
Seven Prophets is already out. Okay, alright, very good. I would definitely, I would a hundred percent recommend going to that is a great. I experienced what you described without you prompting it at all. When I was reading it, I was thinking this is actually really interesting philosophy to get through. Like it sometimes you know, I look at a lot of philosophy, sometimes it’s a bit of an interior work of the will to discipline to get through to the end of a book. But with yours there was no difficulty whatsoever. And I think that that’s gonna be a tremendous asset for people who want to get a better sense of, again, where we came from, where we are and pointing this path forward in a very consistent integrated way that both St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict loved the philosophy of where you ended up with Soloviev. And I think that that’s just a really beautiful introduction to the world.

Alex:
It is.

Dr. Greg:
I want to ask a bit of a delicate question because of where you are and you know just thinking about this philosophy which is so integrated, it’s so Catholic and it’s also so much in, so contrary to some of the prevailing Marxism and things like that. How does that, what does that feel like? What is that like being in Moscow and being in a place, what’s the culture like there with these different competing philosophies.

Alex:
[inaudible] or people wrote that book because first I have two Russian there, Dostoevsky. I have three French, the Descartes, Rousseau, and Blaise Pascal. One German, Nietzsche and one from Denmark, Kierkegaard. But we have two Russians and the merchants are very happy to see that even if [inaudible] that there is real Russian philosophy. Dostoevsky was not a professional philosopher, but there are very few people that have [inaudible] philosophical question about Dostoevsky, you know.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Alex:
And of course the great Soloviev was a professional philosopher. And so the Russians are very happy to see that we have two Russians in all those people and that the Russians are the good part. They’re not only the bad part.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah, yeah.

Alex:
That is two French and one German. So if the Russians are the good side, you know, they are on the side of people that reestablish the heart in order to reestablish the harmony. And that’s why I had convinced that time at the end of the day, you know, Western civilization cannot survive without the help of Eastern Christianity. It’s just [inaudible]. And Western civilization has felt into absolute rationalism and voluntarism and sentimentalism. And the need to have this full vision in of the integrated human. And I think the Russian really have that. Of course the Russian have Bolshevism. Bolshevism was voluntarism, have some voluntarism. And that was for [inaudible] years. But finish, the game is over. That was 30 years ago. 30 years ago Russia was freed from Bolshevism. The ideology now is in the West. You have to be very sincere with that.

Dr. Greg:
Uhm.

Alex:
You know, devils, when they leave one country, they go somewhere else. They just don’t move back to heaven or to hell, excuse me.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Alex:
You do the job where they are drop. [inaudible] evil comes always bad with another form. It just does not disintegrate until people change their hearts and the world is not converted. People did not convert their heart. So it’s absolutely normal that somewhere in the world things are going very bad. And I think Western, Western civilization, I’m not the only one said this, just have to open your eyes.

Dr. Greg:
Sure.

Alex:
Or gender thing. It is even worse than Bolshevism.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Dr. Greg:
Because it’s a religion. Like Bolshevism is biological religion something that can bring disasters for false injuries of humanity? You can get free from altruism and you need a few years to reorient yourself. But when you’ve been castrated by a surgical and operation, you can’t go back to. You see what I meant? So what’s happening in the West is probably now it’s a new ideology and people know this. I’m not the only one to speak about me as a force to speak about them. There is a complete nihilism in the West, absolute nihilism. And it’s a religion. It has become a religion. We just see when people speak about there is no place for objective truth. It’s just about pure emotions and will. So, you know, to live in Moscow, it’s in end of the day to live in a country where there is not a liberal democracy, obviously. But liberal democracy is not an end itself, you know. It’s not an end in itself. But remember what was saying John Paul II, “a democracy without value, it’s a hidden territorialism.” He wrote this many times. So I think people who don’t look in what they call liberal democracy, which looks more than totalitarianism. But it’s not good for them to judge the other’s because it’s just little part of the world that has liberal democracy, very few people. And how can these people say, “I am the world, I am the universe.” It’s not that you go to Asia and you go to African, you go to South America. I mean 90% of the Earth is smart liberal democracy.

Dr. Greg:
Correct.

Alex:
And we are saying, we, I, so afraid to God and we were saying to friends, “we are the universe.” We are not the universe. We’re almost nothing nowadays.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Alex:
Compared to what’s happening in the whole world. So we have to be wise in order to think that the Catholic church as a doctrine, that has always to been very [inaudible] been very clear, which is that democracy is not the best at systems, any kind system is okay if it respects the dignity of the human person. And I think the problem nowadays is not the system, it is the values.

Speaker 3:
Right.

Alex:
So it’s very hard to find places where the dignity of the human universe is respected.

Dr. Greg:
Right.

Alex:
The problem is not democracy. Are not democracy. The problem is very different. It’s about do you have values, do you have virtues or do you convert your heart? Do you look for the truth? You look for beauty? Do you look for goodness? This is a real question and this is nothing to do with democracy, you know.

Dr. Greg:
Well, and even within the democracy, you know, this is very clear. Whenever we have all of these movements and agendas and lobbying that happens to change laws and then when a certain law changes, it’s very clear. The day after the law changes, people’s hearts have not changed. And so even if it’s the abortion laws or whatever it is, there’s still so much other work to be done that’s not really the linchpin that keeps it all together. It has to do with virtue, it has to do with dignity. And that’s really the work. And so the teaching and the books and the speaking and moving people is the work. And so that’s why I’m so grateful for what you’re doing and you got to keep it up. So we’re gonna promote and make sure that people have access to the work that you’re doing. It’s alexhavard.com. Again, that will be linked in the show notes here. Anything else that you want to point people to? Obviously the book that we’ve been talking about, Seven Prophets, anything else specifically that would be a good introduction on your website.

Alex:
Oh, I would say people just enjoy, enjoy readings. And when you’ve read that book, you’ll see that have another book that is very much related to that. And that book is called Free Hearts. Free Hearts is the book that explain the how, how to practice the interaction between intellect, the will and the heart. So Free Hearts is not within philosophy. It’s a very practical way to help you understand how you deal with this. When you read Seven Prophets, you see the problems in philosophy in the world. But after you have to think about yourselves, do you have a tendency towards rationalism? Do you have a tendency towards voluntarism or do you have a tendency towards sentimentalism? And maybe many of us, we have a certain tendency, this is to do with our biological temperaments or with culture, the culture of the country or the family we were born in. So, we have to think and we have to say, okay, maybe I have a tendency where this and this is a disease that, how do we get out of that? And then this is my book, Free Hearts, and this is the course online course also I built for that. That is called Free Hearts. So you should go enroll on this. I mean, just, I think these books Seven Prophets, just to explain you the situation in the world of those things. But then after you, you have to think about yourself and think about once. I don’t want to be Rousseau. What should I do? I don’t want to be Descartes, what should I do? I don’t want to be Nietzsche. What should I do? If I feel that I’m close to that? The answers are very practical. They are in that book Free Hearts.

Dr. Greg:
That’s wonderful. Well, I really appreciate this. I appreciate your time and your work and sharing all of the goodness and beauty and truth of what you’re doing. And so yeah, we’re gonna pray for you. Please keep us in your prayers as well and hopefully people will get much more following into to go to your website, alexhavard.com and yeah, thanks for being here.

Alex:
Great, thank you very much.

Dr. Greg:
Alright. God bless you.

Alex:
God bless.

Thanks for listening to the Being Human Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed this episode and wanna help us spread the word and hear more, please head over to iTunes, leave us a review, and subscribe, as it really helps us to get our content out to more people. Be sure to listen next time as I take you deeper into what it means to be human. If you want more free content and information about what we do at the Catholic Psych Institute, head on over to catholicpsych.com. God bless