From Missionary to Mentor: An Interview with CPMAP Graduate Mary Sutarik – Episode 192

Transcript

Dr. Greg:
 Hello and welcome to the Being Human Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Greg Bottaro, and today I have another amazing guest, a graduate from the CPMAP Certification Program. We’re doing this little series of graduates in preparation for our open house event. We are going to be presenting on everything that is inside the CPMAP certification, what it is, what it requires, what it costs, what you can do with it, on and on, all the details, all of the courses, all of the different benefits, and all of the features of everything that’s inside of this awesome certification.

AI-Generated transcript of this episode:

And so in honor of that, in preparation for that, I am interviewing some of our graduates to give you a taste of what can be done with a certification in accompaniment from Catholic Psych. And so today I have Bobby Angel. Bobby has been on the show before, and he is talked a little bit more about his history and his past, his marriage, his ministry.

Today we’re going to talk about what his experience was like in the program and finishing the program and then what he’s doing with it today. These are really exciting for me to share with you, as I’ve said, and as I’ll continue to say, the greatest blessing in doing this work is working with each student that God calls into our program. There’s only so much that he’s inspired me with that I know CPMAP can do in the world, but every new student that comes in represents a new collaboration and a new picture of what’s really possible with CPMAP once it becomes part of other people’s vocations and ministries. So I hope you enjoy hearing today more about Bobby Angel and how he’s using this in his ministry. What’s it like some insider look at getting older in ministry, some interesting concepts he brought up there and more about what that process was like joining up in the first place with this amazing program that has been such a blessing. I hope you enjoy it. God bless you.

I spent the last 10 years learning how to help people using the best techniques available in psychology, integrated with the Catholic faith. Now, we’ve figured out that there’s a better way to help people than just slapping a Catholic label on the same secular model of therapy you find anywhere else. The real question is how will we make this shift to a new model of truly Catholic accompaniment, keeping the psychological sciences in mind while opening up to a more human and more effective approach? This podcast is here to give you the answer. Join me and follow along as I take you behind the scenes of what this new model looks like, using recorded audio from sessions, working with my team, with colleagues, and even directly with clients. My name is Dr. Greg Bottaro, and I want to welcome you to the Being Human Podcast.

 Dr. Greg:
 Hey, hey, nice, calm down. Welcome, welcome back to the pod.

 Bobby:
 I was. I asked, Are you sure you want me back?

 Dr. Greg:
 I told you. I told you I was gonna give you a chance to redeem yourself.

 Bobby:
 Oh yeah, that’s the framing of this.

 Dr. Greg:
 You didn’t have any response. I wasn’t sure if you got that message.

 Bobby:
 Last time was so embarrassing.

 Dr. Greg:
 Well, we’re going to link to that show. I’m sure people are going to want to go back and listen now. Bobby Angel, it is a blessing and a pleasure to have you here. I of course, you could be a co-host for the podcast if you want. I love talking to you and you’ve got so much wisdom and experience to offer as a husband, as a father, as a speaker in the Catholic celebrity circuit and now a recent graduate of CPMAP certification. There’s so much to talk about here.

 Bobby:
 Why should we even try? We should just respect the mystery and close it out here.

 Dr. Greg:
 Why do I have a sense like you don’t want to be here.

 Bobby:
 It’s more just the, like we could go for three hours. So there is a just we got to pick a path and start walking down it and ah,

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah, we’re not going to go for three hours for sure.

 Bobby:
 Well, not with that attitude, Dr. Greg.

 Dr. Greg:
 Definitely not with that attitude and not without scotch.

 Bobby:
 Yeah.

 Dr. Greg:
 So another time for that. But for now at least I, you don’t have scotch, right?

 Bobby:
 Not in arm’s reach.

 Dr. Greg:
 Okay, I. Last time we talked, you were in the program. You were going through some of the stuff and relating it a lot to your background in your life. Now you’ve finished and you’ve got a bigger view of the whole picture and you can kind of see the whole thing. So I just think it is interesting to get a snapshot from your perspective. First of all, let’s go back a little bit. So for people that didn’t hear the other episode or just to kind of give context, what were you doing before Catholic Psych CPMAP certification? What were you doing with your life?

 Bobby:
 I mean, I was happy. Ignorance is bliss. Ignorance of my parts. I thought I had it all together. I knew I was a work in progress, but I was working at a Catholic school for over a decade. My wife, Jackie has been traveling and speaking. She’s a songwriter and a worship leader and we’ve been blessed to speak together. We’ve been doing media ministry via Ascension Press and have branched out doing our own stuff too. And it was kind of in between post-Covid in between employment that this opportunity for CPMAP came about. And I told you no twice. Cuz I just didn’t understand. It didn’t really, it just kind of the gut level. I don’t know about this, but I really felt the Holy Spirit nudging me to consider it and not knowing what it was gonna lead to personally or professionally and just hopped in. Coming up on three years ago, I think it was October 1st of 2022, I guess is when we started the first cohort.

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah.

 Bobby:
 And it was great to be part of that guinea pig. We don’t know what we’re doing, but we’re all here. And,

 Dr. Greg:
 That’s been a theme of some of these interviews.

 Bobby:
 Yeah. Story of my life. I’ve stopped making five-year plans because and I know I need strategy and I need tactics, but there’s a sense of God just keeps pulling the rug out in good ways.

 Dr. Greg:
 Uhm.

 Bobby:
 So, yeah, the program was life changing and I mean that. I’m not blown smoke here. This really, it just it was beyond just material regurgitation and then here’s your diploma at the end of it. Good luck out there. It was so intentional in how you are walked with from day one by with your training Director. It’s beyond just the content. It’s you and your processing of it. What parts is it bringing to the surface? What aspects of your story? And, and I bristled at first. I shared that in the last episode of I didn’t realize we were sitting in the client’s shoes as we’re going through in the first quarter, especially as a real boot camp of looking at you. And I’m like, “I’m fine. I’m here to help other people. I’ve been in ministry for almost 20 years.” Like “I know what to say and what to do and how to make people cry.” And you know very quickly you realize like, “Oh, oh, there’s stuff I haven’t really dealt with” or there’s stuff I thought I dealt with,

 Dr. Greg:
 Uhm.

 Bobby:
 But there’s always deeper areas to go and to look at.

 Dr. Greg:
 Well before jumping into all that, I want, now that you’ve gone through the program, you’ve learned the skills and tools to understand yourself better. And we couldn’t have this conversation the first, the last episode because you hadn’t finished the program yet. You already had some of the skills. But now you’ve got the whole, the whole package. So now take the skills you’ve learned and let’s go back in time and analyze Bobby Angel September 2022. Before you said yes, after the third time I asked you.

 Bobby:
 Uhm.

 Dr. Greg:
 To give our program a look. You had a lot of reasons not to. I mean, you didn’t know any of the stuff that you just explained is in the program. You had no idea what you were actually signing up for when you signed up. Nobody did because we were still building the program. And I mean now people can at least hear like, “Oh, there’s all this amazing stuff in it,” but you didn’t get the benefit of all of that. So just for, just for the sake of history, let’s go back and look at Bobby Angel in that moment or moments before, like what were you struggling against to make this decision? Feeling nudged by the Holy Spirit and then you said yes. Like what was really going on that deeper level? What parts were involved? What sort of, what did you need in that moment? What did, how did you get what you needed? And then you know, you gave that yes.

 Bobby:
 I mean there’s definitely that productive part of me that always wants the wheels turning forward. And as a father of five, also the provider part, that’s I’m all for personal enrichment and development. And there’s also the, “Okay, how could this help supplement the ministry, the work that we do?” And, the I, again I was in between employment, so it opened up the space to be able to commit to the program. So there was, there was uncertainty for sure.

 Dr. Greg:
 You weren’t totally comfortable with your yes.

 Bobby:
 But there was a piece, like I, I discerned the priesthood in my twenties. I learned a lot about Ignatian spirituality then. My wife and I met in the context of John Paul II’s, Theology of the Body teaching. So there’s a lot of stuff the Lord’s done in my life that I can recognize even if it looks like chaos on the surface, if there’s an undercurrent of peace and if the Lord is opening certain doors very easily it’s for a reason.

 Dr. Greg:
 Uhm.

 Bobby:
 So there was a trust, there was a bit of a cloud of unknowing in where it’s going, and there was still a sense of, again, a part feeling like I had to have it all together. And you know in recognizing too, like it it’s scary to look at some of these defenses and say, “Oh, I don’t have it altogether.” Oh, like there’s a wound that is still kind of coming up. Or there’s blind spots that by nature we don’t really see. Am I willing to look at those? Am I willing to allow other people to look at those for me. And even in the first small group sessions and into the second quarter, like I would never call myself a class clown, but there’s there’s definitely a sense of always be at the ready for a joke. And okay, where’s that coming from? Is there you know my my wife is very quick to call everyone a narcissist. It’s just kind of the pervading like diagnosable thing. We can point a finger at everywhere and humbling to even like is there to to to look and to pause and say, is there a narcissistic part of myself that wants to, there’s a good desire to be seen and known that you know I can stamp down and be like in humility I shouldn’t draw attention to myself, but I find myself making these jokes and wanting to alleviate the tension or the moment or just what’s going on there.

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah and now everybody’s laughing at you and you’re the star of the show.

 Bobby:
 Well, and even how it can be, like there’s a good intent at the bottom of it. Like I want to make people feel comfortable.

 Dr. Greg:
 Uhm.

 Bobby:
 I want to. And on Zoom it’s always tricky to like cuz a lot of comedy is timing.

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah.

 Bobby:
 So if there’s lag or if there’s this extra layer of like waiting for the right moment, and like the learning how to relax that to even just say, like and I don’t know if I’m answering your question, but just the deeper insight of these these parts of me and what they’re looking for and a desire to do God’s work, but what’s underneath that? Is there a sense of I have to earn the rent? Like I have to never let myself rest?

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah, I mean that’s again, a lot more stuff that you learned in the program and really powerful stuff now that will you know that are that’s continuing to to help you in your life and and will now moving forward. I’m, I’m still so curious why you said yes. Like what insight did you have? What what like what part of you was assuaged of its fear? Like, what was that was that thing that just got you across the line to start?

 Bobby:
 Well, I think I trusted you and I trusted Catholic Psych as a whole because

 Dr. Greg:
 Well, okay, let me I’m going to keep pushing into this. I asked you two times before that and you said, no, same person you trust. Same Catholic Psych. So I hear you’re saying the circumstances kind of changed, yet you were in between jobs. Okay, that’s one part of it. You felt called by the Holy Spirit. That’s a significant part of it. Maybe you didn’t feel as much of that the first two times I asked and I don’t remember asking three times, but I’m going to go with it anyways and

 Bobby:
 Maybe it just dug in to my subconscious and that’s the legend I’ve created in my head is the third time

 Dr. Greg:
 I have a couple people that I’ve harassed from the first days of even conceiving of this. You’re one of ’em. I’ve got a couple people still out there that have not signed up yet, so I’m hoping they’ll maybe hear this and realize that the Holy Spirit is is is on my side on this one.

 Bobby:
 Yeah,

 Dr. Greg:
 But no, that final, yes, that final decision to like click the button signing up. Like I can’t imagine like like what level of internal movement had to happen and external talking to Jackie about it. Like what was that that final moment like?

 Bobby:
 Yeah, cuz there it’s kind of like the deaconate formation, the process to become a deacon, it’s not just the guy saying, I want to be a deacon. It’s you got you gotta the wife has to be on board too.

 Dr. Greg:
 Oh yeah.

 Bobby:
 And the time that it takes the energy, the retreats are usually for both the man and his wife. So it’s a team process.

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah.

 Bobby:
 So there were conversations happening and again, things I couldn’t necessarily put to words of why it just felt right and maybe it took time. The first I just it was kind of out of the left field. What is this? This sounds great. I love Dr. Greg, but I don’t know what he’s talking about. And the second time, okay, well clearly something’s going on. There’s spaces available and maybe they see something in me that I don’t see for myself. But then I like to that point of trust, it wasn’t like this is some kind of like fringe, unorthodox understanding. Like you’re so deeply rooted in John Paul II’s anthropology, you’re so deeply faithful to the teachings of the Church and that bringing it all together, what does it mean to be fully human? Like that being part of the vision just gave me kind of that deep, yes, that is what Jackie and I are about, is the whole human formation. And in seminary formation, it very much was like those priestly pillars that you’re formed in of intellectual, which a lot of people focus on, but that’s not the end all be all of a priest. There’s the spiritual pillar, there’s the pastoral pillar, but the other pillar, which is arguably like underlying the whole thing is the human pillar, the human formation. Are you a good human being?

 Dr. Greg:
 Right.

 Bobby:
 Because John Paul II said as much like those other pillars can’t really stand or they’re gonna be very flimsy if you’re not integrated as a human being. So knowing like that’s your frame, that’s where you’re coming from, gave me the piece of the program will be legit. I don’t know where I’ll be by the end of it, but I think, I think that’s what gave me the trust to step out.

 Dr. Greg:
 That’s awesome. That that make makes, that makes a lot of sense that you had so much that you were already pre-framed for from your own formation, your own priestly discernment, your own education, and then you know you saw certain things that resonated in even the vision that I was setting and that we kind of built into the program that it just it you were able to see a lot as as with your own visionary skills and gifts. And so it felt like a right fit at that point. And okay, so then you jump into the program and then you realize that you’re starting with you. And this is not just about helping other people. And we do, we have a whole episode where we talked a lot about that stuff, so I definitely link to that show. People can hear more about that process. But I was really struck with how, and I’ve said this before, all the students who come in, everybody comes in with their own career, their own vocation, their own skills, their own personalities, and it’s a real blessing for me to just watch as each student’s individuality becomes a part of forming what CPMAP can do in the world. Like I don’t have the whole picture of what CPMAP can do in the world. And it’s not until individuals come and make it something that it’s it’s more of a collaboration, which is why we developed the whole partnership program. But even if it’s not like an official partnership, every student is a collaboration in terms of where CPMAP can go and for you to come in with your experience with speaking and being with people in ministry, being married to somebody in ministry. When you talked about wanting to serve people in ministry, I felt so inspired by you and that desire that it seemed like that was a beautiful thing and so that ended up being part of the work that you sort of initially set out to do. You did a retreat after you graduated, hosted a retreat on, well, I don’t want to say too much about it. I want to hear from your words how that all kind of came and fit together.

 Bobby:
 So the, as you start to end the program, you’re encouraged to look at this capstone and that is how do you envision taking this out into the world? And it could be however big, however small, but it’s again, you taking up the work, what the Lord is putting on your heart. And so some people have mapped out a course of their own. Some people wrote a book, decided I’m going to write a book and that’s going to be my big project. I’ve tried to pitch to you a diorama. I had a really nice shoebox. You said, “No, go back to the drawing board.”

 Dr. Greg:
 I was 50 50, but I ended up leaning towards, no,

 Bobby:
 You had to pray about it. On my heart coming up more and more was who’s ministering to the ministers? There’s always this danger of burnout. There’s always a sense of you know, “Hey, you’re doing two or three jobs at the parish. Can we duct tape one more to you and pay you exactly the same?” Like,

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah.

 Bobby:
 I saw it at Catholic schools. I’ve seen it just all over. And so you can’t give what you don’t have. So who is pouring into the ministers? I had the thought of wouldn’t it be great to have a retreat for people in ministry where it’s just on a call to rest? And we’re sprinkling in insights that we’ve learned in CPMAP, the call to integration, to look to understand some of these parts of us, especially for people in ministry, if there’s a workaholic part, if there’s a savior part, it feels like I got to do everything. I can’t ask for help. I can’t rely on anyone else. You know a lot builds up over time. And so thankfully we were able to not too long, well, I mean six months after I graduated, I had for for the graduation, I had the framework of the retreat and six months later was able to make it happen. Thanks to a really great team. And we had it in the local Dallas area and we kept it small. I think it was 30 people, maybe a few more. We snuck in at the last minute and that’s what it was. It was a time of rest in between like the busy summer conference season and camps and everything. And we had local people. We had people from the West Coast, we had someone from South America come on up. It just was this really cool spread of people in very different like catechists, youth ministers, kind of a spread. And the schedule was very loose too. So it was like if you need to take a nap, take a nap. Like if you need to.

 Dr. Greg:
 I mean, the retreat was called rest.

 Bobby:
 Yeah, so it was like, I am not going to program it to death. That would be counterintuitive. And there’s no one to chaperone and there’s no one chaperoning you. So if you want to just walk around the grounds, it’s a beautiful retreat center in the North Dallas area, and we’re going to make it an annual thing. The hope is to continue to do this simple format and and continue to invite people into this space where they can be challenged and also let the Lord do the work of reintegration.

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah, so besides for the obvious, the value add and the sort of unique thing that there’s less to do, it’s less programmed. What else about this retreat was a fruit of CPMAP and integration?

 Bobby:
 A couple aspects. One is that, so the talks, there were five talks and what was cool was you there was a Friday to Sunday option, which ended with the closing mass. But there was a Saturday only option like if you just for a discounted rate, if that’s all you had time for or that’s all you felt comfortable with or there were family obligations, you could just do the Saturday. You didn’t need to stay overnight. So it was cool to offer that like kind of depended on what did the person need, what do they have time for? The talks were informed by the topics we’ve gone through in the CPMAP structure. We also offered one-on-one like speed mentorship, like speed dating kind of mentorship is, like we got to think of a better word for it because mentorship is so, we’ll workshop that later, Dr. Greg,

 Dr. Greg:
 When you say speed mentorship, you have to say like dating. And then it’s like, all right, we’re in a different world.

 Bobby:
 Yeah.

 Dr. Greg:
 I kind of like it. But yeah, I think we could maybe workshop that a bit.

 Bobby:
 Yeah, mentorship is this intentional daily model of accompaniment, and what we wanted to do was give the ministers a chance of like to taste that of having a space to just be heard. So you could sign up for half an hour spots with myself or two of the other mentors that were on the retreat. So you had real time conversation or just needed to dump, just needed to process something. Whatever was going on in your heart, just about everyone took us up on it. I think one person saw all three of us. We didn’t specify only go once. She wanted to good, good on her. She wanted to sample everyone.

 Dr. Greg:
 By the way, when you say mentors at the retreat, another really cool thing is the relationships that you formed as a student and then you maintain these collaborations now. We had Julie Xistris on and she was talking about her working with Paula and that their actual capstone in their work is going to be a fruit of that collaboration. You’re not necessarily doing something that tied in with other partners, but you invited some of the other mentors to join you. And you had two other Catholic Psych mentors coming to be part of that day.

 Bobby:
 Yes. And I put them in the hot seat. One of them gave the third talk of the retreat. Another one just gave a testimony, a 5 to 10 minute testimony, and she did incredible. And like that was so yeah, all the retreats could sign up for these spots and with the noting, like if you want to do this long-term after the retreat that’s available,

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah.

 Bobby:
 If you feel you need this, like we’re here for you. But at the very least to give people the space to be heard and tell us “What’s going on? What are you carrying right now? How can we pray for you?” That was a really cool aspect of the retreat.

 Dr. Greg:
 Well, it makes sense. I mean, if you have a retreat led by priests who are spiritual directors, you can schedule some time and you know you have a snapshot of sort of what’s going on in your spiritual life at that moment and you have a place to unpack it a little bit and you have somebody listening to you and our model teaches spiritual direction. It just grounds it in the science and the philosophy of the whole person. So you get this much more holistic approach. So if you’re gonna do a retreat, it makes sense that you would offer that zoom kind of snapshot you know time to to kind of look a little bit more intently with accompaniment.

 Bobby:
 Well, and I mean it’s incredible what people will tell you with very little runway and you know that,  clergy know that. But anyone in ministry, and if you have the charism of, like if you have the spiritual gift of counsel where people just tell you their life story, whether or not you asked for it. Like I feel like that was me growing up. Like I didn’t want to know people’s secrets or stuff. They just would be like, “Hey, can I talk to you?” I’m like, “Oh, I guess.” So story of my life apparently.

 Dr. Greg:
 Like this podcast right now.

 Bobby:
 Yeah, here I am again, how you know people in ministry, the stuff that high schoolers will tell you, the things that people of the street will just unload to you. It’s very humbling work. And so too, if people in ministry, youth ministers, catechists, DRE’s, teachers, we had like teachers that were in their Summer break that were there that just needed. It is very, very humbling. We’re all holding onto stuff and we all need people in our lives and times in seasons much more intense accompaniment. We need people to like to listen to hear us. It’s not healthy, it’s not good. We’re made for communion. It’s not good for us to keep it all bottled up just to ourselves.

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah, it’s such a beautiful thing to offer that and to be so intentional about it. And it’s like we name it, we carve out the space for it. You thought really deeply and prayed a lot about how to make it fit that purpose. And then you offered it and it was a wild success. I mean, the feedback, I was blown away by people’s feedback and their responses to how it was for them.

 Bobby:
 Someone actually said, “This was exactly what I needed. I actually got to rest on this retreat.” And I was like, “Good.” That is the one thing I was hoping to get like more than education, more than I learned something. It just did you rest? Okay, great. It did its purpose and gave that space for some deeper reflection, God to make some deeper connections and you to get a little bit recharged for to go back out to do the work you need to do.

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah. That’s so awesome. So then, I mean besides that, you’re not just doing retreats, obviously you’re doing mentorship now. You’re a partner mentor, which is an option that’s available to some people after finishing up the program. And so you are officially a Catholic Psych mentor and you had some concerns initially about your desires were to make money to provide for your family. And I know you know there was some initial concerns shared by all the students about, you know are we gonna need a license? Does should we get go to you know grad school if we really want to be “legitimate” or, so what’s it like on the other side of all this? What’s it actually feel like for you?

 Bobby:
 Yeah, I mean I started out really unsure of where this was going. And as the program got going and I really felt fed by this work, like I would love to monetize this. Like I would love to continue to do this along with you know pairing with the ministry that Jackie and I do. Our traveling and speaking and the media stuff. And I now it’s coming up on a year since I’ve graduated, been out in the world and being a partner mentor, which I feel so blessed to be that you know I don’t need to reinvent the wheel. I get to kind of be a contractor under the umbrella and still have access to Catholic Psych’s resources. My training directors still walking with me, it’s and I’ve made up like the money that I invested for the education for the program. I’ve already made that up.

 Like from and just like I’ve had to learn and to be more assertive in marketing myself. Like that’s a whole learning curve. But still like the need is great and there’s no shortage of people that need help, that need to be walked with. And for me too, it’s recognizing, “Okay, there’s parts of me that might be a little fearful of putting myself out there in those ways, but do I believe in this program? Do I believe in what it’s done for me?” And that always convicts me to advertise again, send another email post again about it. And I mean from the beauty of the model too is I’m walking with people around the world. Like I’ve been blessed to work with people in the UK, obviously a lot here in the United States, but Costa Rica, a soldier who got stationed overseas. It’s like, listen, the way we help people, it’s in this asynchronous walkie-talkie format, so it’s not real time. So it’s anywhere around the world, any time zone it works, I can accompany people. Like it’s such a gift, the model, how it’s been formed, and it’s it’s I love it. I feel so humbled and honored to get to walk with the people like I do. Those who continue to entrust themselves to the process and the care.

 Dr. Greg:
 That’s so beautiful. And you’re putting yourself in service to the people like who need it the most. It’s really a beautiful thing that your heart for serving those who serve is so deep and obviously not limited to that, but even just starting off with that intention, it just opens up so much for you. How does it work with Jackie? So you guys have this ministry, like do you are you trying to plug it into what you’re doing? If you guys do a retreat, are you like plugging mentorship all the time? Or like how do you envision yourself like folding it into you know the current work that you were already doing?

 Bobby:
 Yeah, so we are getting older. Go figure, time. There’s a lot more gray than there used to be on this beard.

 Dr. Greg:
 Once the gray starts spreading, then you start shaving. You’re like, “Alright, enough.”

 Bobby:
 No, the beard is the source of my strength. We still love getting to do youth events, but we’re doing more adult stuff. We’re doing more marriage retreats and adult conferences, which is really cool. And we’re less older brother and big sister and more mom and dad. It is a cool thing when you kind of get to this era of ministry. I don’t know where your kids are, our oldest is 10. So but when they start getting that age where they can go on conferences, like we have friends in ministry, like their kids that were going to Steubenville for the first time, it’s like just a different thing. It’s very cool to see the spiritual multiplication, the generations thing happening. But you know yes, as we’re doing more events, more adult events, we’re definitely plugging mentorship. And for those of you who feel called and need someone to walk with you, Bobby offers this one-on-one mentorship model, and I’ll explain it. So depending on the events and the talk, I’ll have it. I’ll have some business cards out and just field questions as people feel called to learn more.

 Dr. Greg:
 How does that come across? Like do, something I’ve always kind of struggled with, and I don’t, I never was, like, in Church doing ministry, but when I tried to bring what we do into Church, sometimes people felt uncomfortable with this like, you you’re bringing business into, like into the parish, into the Church. Like how is this, how is this appropriate? I don’t know. Do you feel like that glitch is there or do you feel like it’s more natural? It kind of just fits.

 Bobby:
 It’s more natural when you do it at the end of a talk. If you’ve got a table where you’ve got some books that people could buy or other merch, and you’ve got like the mentorship stuff out there. So it’s like if you want to learn more, you can follow us on this website. You can go to YouTube and Bobby offers some real intentional accompaniment for those who feel called. So you just kind of sow the seed and see where it lands. And yeah, you have spiritual eyes. The longer you’re in ministry and you can kind of see if a person is fighting a vocation, for instance, they’re just kind of like asking vague questions. They’re hanging around the table there. It’s like, you know so you can kind of read like “What’s going on, tell me what’s going on in your life.”

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah, I mean, it does make sense like theoretically and sort of objectively that we should be able to work these out together, like work these things together. And it’s not just a business that we’re just trying to make money, but we’re spending our life serving people in this way. And then of course, we have like monetary consideration.

 Bobby:
 Right.

 Dr. Greg:
 So a lot of people, I hear this talking about this with spiritual direction, is now there’s these new certifications for spiritual direction that are out there. And it’s like if you’re a priest and it’s part of your vocation in your ministry and you’re like living even, especially if you’re living a vow of poverty where you know and you’re not supposed to be really making money anyway, then of course you’re not charging for spiritual direction. But as soon as we open the door to say that laity can provide spiritual direction, well that should at least open the conversation to say, “Well, are they providing so much spiritual direction that they don’t have time to have another job? Is that actually their main vocation professionally?” Then so is there a world in which you can see that this is a value that is that should be compensated with just wage? And then you know that’s a totally different conversation. The problem is that people are not used to, this is what I think because of managed care, because of insurance. It’s like how much is it really worth to talk about your problems and to get help from somebody who can give you direction or give you a formative relationship even more importantly and more deeply that’s gonna heal those problems. You know and I don’t think as a culture, I don’t think it has anything to do with faith, actually. It has nothing to do with religion or faith. I think it has to do with just a misunderstanding of the value of being mentored like in a generic sense. And it depends on the industry that we’re talking about. You know ,if you were gonna be an executive and you went and got an executive coach, people pay at these top jobs. They pay like $200,000 for an executive coach

 Bobby:
 Right.

 Dr. Greg:
 To be a better leader of a big company. You know it’s like, why would you spend that kind of money? What about being a better, how about healing your marriage and becoming a better husband or father or having better family life? Like why that shouldn’t cause an objection, but we have a long way to go. But I’m just curious what your experience has been like actually directly bringing that offer of value into a place that’s typically more associated with going to get something for free.

 Bobby:
 Yeah, no, I think that it is something unique to the Catholic space where we’re used to not expecting ministers to be paid very little. And we’ve got the vows of poverty, and so we have these spiritual guides on demand for not that much. And so sometimes when it comes to like, “Well, how much is your healing worth to you? How much is being free of your addictions worth to you?” And yeah, we’ll spend all this money for executive coaching, but when it comes to your marriage, when it comes to getting like becoming aware of the wounds you’re holding onto and growing in freedom, it’s like, do you want to be free Jesus’s words in the gospel? Do you want to be free? And again, I can go to a student intern for that within Catholic Psych. I can go to a graduated partner. The services are gonna be, there’s a baby pounding on the door.

 Dr. Greg:
 That’s okay.

 Bobby:
 If you can hear that or not. You know what I,

 Dr. Greg:
 Yeah, we do build in the sliding scale. So we try to make this as accessible to as many people as possible. But it’s honestly, I mean, I have the same problem honestly, with just the way that the world values compensation for teachers.

 Bobby:
 Right.

 Dr. Greg:
 You know in the education space, you know when you start to compare what people make who play sports and where advertising dollars go or how much people will spend on all the entertainment in their life versus taking care of the really hard issues that really big things that they could get help really moving the needle on. So there’s a lot of work for us to do there, but I think more importantly than that, it’s awesome to see you combining your heart for ministry with this deeper capacity for accompaniment that you’ve been able to receive, and now you can turn around and give. And so now, you know I’m just so excited for where this is going for you and for your ministry and for us and you know further collaborations that we get to drive forward. So we’re going to put links in the show notes, but is there a signup for or info page for the retreat that you mentioned? You’re going to do it annually?

 Bobby:
 Yeah, I mean there’s the past link, which you could glean some info from, but we don’t have one yet for the next Summer. The thought of to is maybe twice a year during Advent time might be kind of cool. And then a summer option and just kind of rotate different speakers or presenters still offer the speed dating mentorship. We’ll come up with a better name by then, I promise. But then our myself and so many of the other partners are open for business. So if you feel like this is a need for you, we’re here. We’re praying and ready for you guys.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah. And your page and your link for a free consultation is at catholicpsych.com/bobby, right?

Bobby:
Yep. First Bobby.

Dr. Greg:
So people who head there. What’s that?

Bobby:
First Bobby through the program. So I get that.

Dr. Greg:
You get Bob. Yeah, I know. What are we gonna do when we have repeat names? We’re gonna have to, that’s going to get messy. But you’re our one and only Bobby.

Bobby:
Sweet.

Dr. Greg:
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you, even though you didn’t really want to do this today.

Bobby:
No, I did. I just, I just

Dr. Greg:
Kidding.

Bobby:
No, I said yes. And then I told Jackie before we got started, she’s like, “What are you guys talking about?” I said, “I don’t know.”

Dr. Greg:
Beautiful. Moving with the spirit, like usual.

Bobby:
Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much, Dr. Greg. Thank you for inviting me to the program. I like sincerely, I’m a better man, husband, and father because of it.

Dr. Greg:
Well, thank you for your yes, and I’m a better man also because of you participating with us, and the collaboration is really beautiful. So thank you and God bless you and to all of our listeners, God bless you as well. Until next time.

Thanks for listening to the Being Human Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed this episode and wanna help us spread the word and hear more, please head over to iTunes, leave us a review, and subscribe, as it really helps us to get our content out to more people. Be sure to listen next time as I take you deeper into what it means to be human. If you want more free content and information about what we do at the Catholic Psych Institute, head on over to catholicpsych.com. God bless you.