Transcript
Dr. Greg:
Hello and welcome to the Being Human Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Greg Bottaro, and today I have a co-host with me for this episode, Fr. Louis Merosne. He is a being human friend and favorite. Today, actually, we’re doing something a little different. I’m really excited to share this with you because we were kind of talking and praying and discerning different ways to bring together the work that we do here and the integration of the psychological sciences with the faith and Father Lewis’s own ministry, his, first of all, his priestly ministry, and specifically when it comes to his preaching and breaking open the word of God. We started talking about the liturgy and ways in which it could be helpful to connect the dots and help people really understand the word of God in a sort of word made flesh kind of way.
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AI-Generated transcript of this episode:
So we were brainstorming maybe even a new podcast that could emerge from this, but we thought we’d at least try out an episode here to basically just break open the scripture from the Sunday liturgy and comment and talk through it and apply it to our own lives. We get really personal in this episode and it’s a lot of integration where we’re bringing together psychological concepts with spiritual concepts and of course through the lens of the liturgy and the theology of understanding what is happening in the mass. So this episode is concerning the scriptures of when this comes out. It’ll be the last Sunday, so it’ll be October 13th 2024. And so if you’re listening to this right when this is released, you would’ve just have heard these readings at mass, but you can always obviously go back to read the readings from October 13th, and I’d love to hear from you. Tell me what you think about how this comes across. If this is helpful to you, if it blesses you, in any way. There’s so many things that tug at our bandwidth and our time right now for attention, ways that we can be creating resources that serve all of you.
So help us know if this is something that you’d benefit from hearing more of, and you can email me at [email protected] or [email protected] is our podcast email line. Either way, just let us know if this is something you’d like to hear more of. Alright. God bless you.
I spent the last 10 years learning how to help people using the best techniques available in psychology, integrated with the Catholic faith. Now, we’ve figured out that there’s a better way to help people than just slapping a Catholic label on the same secular model of therapy you find anywhere else. The real question is how will we make this shift to a new model of truly Catholic accompaniment, keeping the psychological sciences in mind while opening up to a more human and more effective approach? This podcast is here to give you the answer. Join me and follow along as I take you behind the scenes of what this new model looks like, using recorded audio from sessions, working with my team, with colleagues, and even directly with clients. My name is Dr. Greg Bottaro, and I want to welcome you to the Being Human Podcast.
Fr. Louis:
In the of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Dr. Greg:
Amen.
Fr. Louis:
The Lord be with you.
Dr. Greg:
And with your spirit.
Fr. Louis:
Our reading from the Holy Gospel according to Mark.
Dr. Greg:
Glory to you, O Lord.
Fr. Louis:
As Jesus was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.’” He replied and said to him, “Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth.” Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, “You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” The disciples were amazed at his words. So Jesus again said to them in reply, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” They were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves, “Then who can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God.” Peter began to say to him, “We have given up everything and followed you.” Jesus said, “Amen, I say to you, there is no one who has given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel who will not receive a hundred times more now in this present age: houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and eternal life in the age to come.”
The gospel of the Lord.
Dr. Greg:
Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ.
Fr. Louis:
Why don’t we say Hail Mary so that we can enter into this word fruitfully. So this word can transform us and we can receive it just like our Lady did.
Hail Mary, Full of Grace, The Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Dr. Greg:
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Fr. Louis:
Alright.
Dr. Greg:
Alright.
Fr. Louis:
That was a beautiful gospel reading.
Dr. Greg:
That’s a heavy one.
Fr. Louis:
And there’s so much in there.
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
And yeah, it’s it’s for a priest, anyone else, I’m looking at that the first thing that comes is like, “Oh, there’s so much to talk about.” But then I have to remember, well, I can’t talk about everything. There’s like 50 homilies in here.
Dr. Greg:
Do you struggle with that when you’re preparing for a homily?
Fr. Louis:
Yes, sometimes I do. But you know one thing though that I find helpful, believe it or not, as I get closer and closer to the moment, but especially as I’m interacting with the people.
Dr. Greg:
Uhm.
Fr. Louis:
There’s something about that, even if I’m preparing for a conference and I know having my mind what it might look like and what talk I want to give, but as I’m speaking with the people and I am in communion with their own persons and their energy, if you will, there’s a transformation in the message and how I give the message to that people and that’s why. Yeah. And so,
Dr. Greg:
What do you think is the transformation? What’s really happening interiorly?
Fr. Louis:
I think, interiorly, interio, say that again?
Dr. Greg:
Interiorly.
Fr. Louis:
That, what happens there is that first of all, the word is meant to be communicated not just as an abstract thing as ideas, but the word is meant to be sewn in hearts. And when you’re looking at the heart where you are sowing, that’s where the difference is you know where to throw the grain, whether throw the corn or the whatever the seed is that you’re doing. And so being with the people right there and then and connecting to them that way, I think just I come alive more and I have a better relationship with the act of sowing rather than just thinking and meditating, which is nice, but it’s never the same as being there.
Dr. Greg:
So when you, because we, so if you’re talking about like all the homilies, you could come up with all the things you could say,
Fr. Louis:
Right.
Dr. Greg:
In the abstract.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
When you’re just thinking about it on your own.
Fr. Louis:
Right.
Dr. Greg:
But then when you’re with people,
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
It’s like something, it’s sort of like coalesces into like a thing that you want to say or like
Fr. Louis:
Correct.
Dr. Greg:
The Holy Spirit’s working in you.
Fr. Louis:
That’s right.
Dr. Greg:
And then the word is coming alive.
Fr. Louis:
Exactly.
Dr. Greg:
And so it kind of clears away all of the distractions and the,
Fr. Louis:
Yeah.
Dr. Greg:
The sort of like the
Fr. Louis:
That’s it.
Dr. Greg:
Unnecessary things you could have said, but in this moment,
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
It’s not what you’re going to say.
Fr. Louis:
Exactly. And there’s got to be a balance. Of course, there needs to be preparation, but also an openness to the people that’s right there that’s going through things right now. And that’s why with the same readings you can have and on one Sunday, and I’ve had this happen to me, and I have people tell me because let’s say I had to preach three or four masses, and I’ll have people tell me, I’ll have someone like a deacon or something that serves with me and they’re like, there was four different homilies. And I’m like, yes. It was four different groups of people.
Dr. Greg:
You’re not taking the lazy way out, printing out the homily from some review site and then just reading it.
Fr. Louis:
Or AI.
Dr. Greg:
Or AI now.
Fr. Louis:
These days, yeah, AI can write a main homily.
Dr. Greg:
Oh man.
Fr. Louis:
However, again, there’s the balance. Because we need to prepare, but we need to also be so flexible that because if you don’t prepare, you’re gonna go everywhere. However, in preparing, there must, we must leave room not just like the last little portion for the Holy Spirit, but we must leave room for the Holy Spirit to touch upon every aspect of what you did prepare.
Dr. Greg:
So I have a hypothesis that fits the gospel. So,
Fr. Louis:
Ok.
Dr. Greg:
And I don’t know if this is right because I didn’t ask you this before.
Fr. Louis:
Yeah. This is [inaudible].
Dr. Greg:
This is gonna take some deep, this is some deep interiority work.
Fr. Louis:
Let’s go.
Dr. Greg:
Could there be parts that cling to like to when you’re coming up with the ideas of all the things you could say.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
That these are sort of in some way attachments.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
And part of you is sort of coming up with, like here’s all the things that I can say.
Fr. Louis:
Right.
Dr. Greg:
And the real like the call is to let go of your attachments.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And to be abandoned.
Speaker 2
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
To Jesus and Divine Providence.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
What would the parts, this is the deeper part, if you depending on how far you want to go here but
Fr. Louis:
Sure.
Dr. Greg:
What like what could be the reason behind coming up with all these ideas besides for good? Part of it is gonna be good preparation
Fr. Louis:
Right
Dr. Greg:
Like you’re saying, but what else might be there?
Fr. Louis:
I could have a part of me that wants to be all different parts of me that actually it’s what would please them. For example, if I talk about this that somehow makes that part feel better, feel more relevant, feel more justified with certain things. Maybe for example, I’m going through a conflict with a brother who I feel is not talking well enough about the Holy Father, and then I’m like, there’s a passage in you know Luke 22 or let’s say Matthew 16. And I’m like, “Aha, I’ve got the answer for him.”
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
You know, that’ll tell him. And then it’s like, I get excited about that, but it’s like, okay, that’s that’s cute. That’s your little conflict with your brother? But God’s people over here.
Dr. Greg:
That’s the Holy Spirit saying that, right? That’s cute.
Fr. Louis:
Yes, exactly. And yeah, it’s important to to. So yeah, that part of me could be trying to work out its own rupture or trying to resolve certain things.
Dr. Greg:
Well, even today’s gospel, I can imagine in your ministry and missionary work.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Like you’re talking about wealth.
Fr. Louis:
Yeah.
Dr. Greg:
You deal with a lot of wealthy people and you deal with a lot of poor people.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And sometimes you want to, I would imagine this is my part, projecting or wrangle their necks and be like, “What’s wrong with you? Can’t you see these people are suffering, cough up some cash.” So you could use this homily to be a really nice
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Sledgehammer to knock somebody out with. Right?
Fr. Louis:
That’s true. At the same time, and yes, I have had that temptation. At the same time though, we shouldn’t just let a particular part to be the one in the driver’s seat.
Dr. Greg:
Right?
Fr. Louis:
Right? Because then I would be blended with that part and I would let that part of me lead the whole me, the whole family that I am, if you will. And so when the Holy Spirit is the one guiding me, and when I’m in my true self, when I’m more connected, when I’m more detached, if you will. Then I can be more creative. I can be more connected to the people and I can have a message that, so that part can be given a voice that why are you feeling so frustrated is like, well, because I really want those people to have food.
Dr. Greg:
Right.
Fr. Louis:
And that’s a valid thing. And so it’s a matter of, okay, I can take that into consideration without letting that part feel like it has to play the entire role.
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
Fixing everything.
Dr. Greg:
So the connection I’m making is I’m thinking through this is like if, if we’re like the rich young man and we have all of these things.
Fr. Louis:
Yeah.
Dr. Greg:
Like these parts are all the ways that we protect ourselves.
Fr. Louis:
Absolutely.
Dr. Greg:
They’re our way of doing things.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And we have all this stuff and maybe we follow the rules,
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
But we also have all these things that are really underneath the surface, like my way of doing this.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And Jesus is saying, “I want you to let go of all of that self protection.”
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
“I want you to trust me. “
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
And then, and so the real call is like, “Okay, then can you let go of all these ideas that you had, all these parts that came to the surface and all these arguments or all these agendas, and can you really just trust the Holy Spirit?”
Fr. Louis:
Wow, that is fantastic because that’s exactly what is happening with the rich young man. He’s like on the surface he looks perfect.
Dr. Greg:
Right.
Fr. Louis:
“I’ve done everything right.”
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
And Jesus kind of smiles. I can see him smiling like, alright, you ready to go deep?
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
Underneath all that, there is a self-protection in all these things. There’s a comfort and knowing I’ve done it all, I’ve followed the rules, but deeper do you trust?
Dr. Greg:
Right?
Fr. Louis:
And Jesus is calling that trust out of him. And because of that, he goes always sad because he realizes that “I’m giving up my protection,”
Dr. Greg:
Yes.
Fr. Louis:
“that I’ve had for years.”
Dr. Greg:
So you could even look at that though, even the way you prepare homilies or thinking about that as one little sort of
Fr. Louis:
Yeah.
Dr. Greg:
Microcosm of this whole thing.
Fr. Louis:
Absolutely.
Dr. Greg:
I was thinking about that for myself, like how the other readings for the day are from the liturgy are you know going back to the Old Testament writings on wisdom,
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And then even in the Responsorial Psalm talking about love.
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
And then talking about the word
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
In the New Testament and then the gospel here, but it’s like as Catholics, I think we get really accustomed to thinking about these things.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
As if they’re just accoutrements sort of nice decorations.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
Like even love. It’s like, “Oh yeah, of course we love. God is love.” Okay, or wisdom? It’s like, “Yeah, okay.” But the way that it’s presented today in the liturgy, it’s like these things are real.
Fr. Louis:
Yeah.
Dr. Greg:
They’re substantive, they’re alive. They’re meant to fill us. Like when Christ said He lives on the word alone, it’s like that’s His bread. He eats the word.
Fr. Louis:
Wow.
Dr. Greg:
That we feast on the word.
Fr. Louis:
Aah.
Dr. Greg:
And love itself is like a fire. Wisdom and love are like two double-edged swords. They’re things that we don’t really think about as things and how much more of our life would be alive and how we could come to experience a satisfaction in this world that is mystical and supernatural. If we really understood. Like what does it mean? And this is when like if you fast,
Fr. Louis:
Right.
Dr. Greg:
And allow yourself to feel the physical hunger,
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
But then you really go deep in prayer and you feel filled.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Like how can you feel filled in your body? You’re like, “I’m hungry.”
Fr. Louis:
Yeah.
Dr. Greg:
But then you could be just drinking in
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
The word and the Spirit
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
And wisdom and it’s like, no, there’s something else going on here.
Fr. Louis:
Amen:
Dr. Greg:
And so even as the Holy Spirit comes to us, like are we willing to give up the superficial things that we rely on that seem like
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
They’re what are keeping us safe or keeping us satisfied to actually be stripped free of all those things, to go to the heart of what will overflow with abundance, our satisfaction.
Fr. Louis:
Amen. If that young man only knew how much more there was for him.
Dr. Greg:
Yes.
Fr. Louis:
He’s moaning the losses. ‘Cuz, Jesus is asking him, “Give all that up.” He sees the loss. But if he could only turn around to look at the fullness of Christ, of that love, of that wisdom that is substantial, more substantial than the money, than the gold, than the chariots or whatever else he’s got.
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
Then he could be like, “Oh my gosh, I could give this up.”
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
Which of course is the basis for the vows that we take, that the religious take in community of public chastity and obedience. And then Jesus says, “If you give it up, you’ll get way more.”
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
But again, “Do you trust me?” But going back a little bit to giving up ourselves, to let go of the things that make us, that we are attached to make us feel safe and protected. Look how Jesus perfectly does that. Here. The young man says, “Good teacher.” So he’s praising Jesus, “I know you’re a good man. You’re awesome. You’re so good.” And Jesus has the right to enjoy that. Cuz He’s good because He’s God. But what He does is He steps to the side, points to the Father and says, only God is good. And He is like, but He’s not insecure in doing that. He is so securely attached to his Father.
Dr. Greg:
Oh, I like this. That’s meta.
Fr. Louis:
That’s melon you said?
Dr. Greg:
Meta, meta,
Fr. Louis:
Meta.
Dr. Greg:
That’s taking it to the next level. Jesus is being abandoned.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
To Divine Providence.
Fr. Louis:
Because He’s so attached to the Father, and it doesn’t matter what praises He gets or what insults He gets, He’s attached to good to the Father who is good.
Dr. Greg:
Oh, so good. He’s leading by example.
Fr. Louis:
100%.
Dr. Greg:
And He is that bridge. So He’s overflowing what He receives, what the Father gives Him, He gives to us.
Fr. Louis:
Wow.
Dr. Greg:
And He’s proving it. He’s like, you can follow me. You can do this. It’s okay. You can sell everything else.
Fr. Louis:
Even your life.
Dr. Greg:
Give it all up.
Fr. Louis:
Which he gave up.
Dr. Greg:
Oh, it’s so good.
Fr. Louis:
Oh my gosh. That’s why when we operate from that place of total abandonment to God and His providence, it really, I can’t say it doesn’t matter, but it doesn’t matter what else happens. Whatever storms come around, whatever losses are experienced, we are able to say, “This too will pass. But I am anchored in my Father’s love and I’m attached to Him.” Boy and Jesus wants that for the man because He loves him. That’s how the scripture says it, is that Jesus looks at the young man. Jesus looking at him, loved him and said to him, “You are lacking in one thing. Go sell what you have and give it to the poor, and you’ll have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me.”
Dr. Greg:
I love it. It’s like, it’s like what he’s saying, it’s like the one thing that you’re lacking in is abandonment.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And trust.
Fr. Louis:
Yes, that’s the only thing you’re missing. How often do we have everything else? We go to Sunday mass every Sunday. We’ll go to daily mass. We say rosary every day. We do the liturgy of the hours. We might even give to the poor in a sense. But if we can do all this without abandonment though,
Dr. Greg:
Abandonment’s the one thing.
Fr. Louis:
It’s the one thing.
Dr. Greg:
So this is also interesting because I think just to get a little bit more superficial here for a minute, it’s like a lot of times this is a troubling passage for people.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Because it’s like, “Oh, what about wealth? What about having money?”
Fr. Louis:
Right, right.
Dr. Greg:
And I’ve wrestled with this a lot myself because we’ve been really successful at times.
Fr. Louis:
Praise of Lord.
Dr. Greg:
And I’ve also noticed how, and obviously we’re constantly seeking holiness and conversion, and this is always a wrestling thing because it’s like, all right, should we not seek wealth?
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
Because, like it’s very clear.
Fr. Louis:
Right.
Dr. Greg:
But then at the same time, it’s like, well, we also see like you obviously appreciate this, that there’s, I mean, there’s so many people in poverty.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
That are miserable.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
That are not joyful. I mean, there’s a lot of mean, especially Haiti. That’s what I love about Haiti. There’s so many joyful people in Haiti.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Who are dirt poor.
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
Literally dirt poor, and the happiest people I’ve ever met.
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
But then there’s also a lot of people that are not happy. They’re miserable, they’re selfish. And then you meet wealthy people and it’s like some wealthy people are the holiest people I know.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And then obviously a lot of wealthy people are very miserable.
Fr. Louis:
Exactly. So what’s the commonality?
Dr. Greg:
So it’s not, it’s not the money.
Fr. Louis:
That’s right.
Dr. Greg:
But then so this is the thing I’ve wrestled with because, and I feel like it’s come down to abandonment in my life that I’ve realized that this is at the core. And like to get really personal for a minute, like we were doing really well. Catholic Psych was doing really well. We like set ourselves up through Covid like amazingly, and it just so happened that we positioned ourselves with this new model that was like perfect for social isolation and quarantine. And then you know through a series of things that have happened over the last two years, like we’ve personally lost a lot.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
And I, like the whole time, whether we were having a lot or you know as we were growing.
Fr. Louis:
Yeah.
Dr. Greg:
I was praying this prayer, “Lord, let us not lose sight of abandonment and detachment. Lord keep us attached to you and detached from this world.”
Fr. Louis:
Wow.
Dr. Greg:
And it’s like almost like you can see yourself like getting success in the world. You have to almost like cling harder.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Despite that it’s like I got to clinging harder now to being abandoned and detached.
Fr. Louis:
Absolutely.
Dr. Greg:
And I was talking to a person who’s a spiritual person who’s fairly wealthy recently, and he said like the biggest thing, the biggest problem in his life that he’s realized is he doesn’t have to be abandoned to Divine Providence anymore.
Fr. Louis:
Wow.
Dr. Greg:
And I’ve realized that’s what I’m like desperately clinging to, making sure never happens.
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
And I’ve watched over the last two years as certain external circumstances have created a financial difficulty for us.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
That’s gotten pretty, it’s pretty severe right now. And it’s real bad.
Fr. Louis:
So sorry to hear that.
Dr. Greg:
It’s real bad.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And, but it’s been amazing because it’s like the whole time I’ve been clinging to.
Speaker 4:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
Like don’t let us lose sight of abandonment. And you watch over here, it’s like the bank account numbers, and it’s like you can watch them go up and then you can watch them go down and you can watch them almost get to a place where, I don’t know how that’s ever going to get fixed, but you’re just like clinging to abandonment.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And then it’s actually joyful.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
And I’m like, I almost don’t even want to say it out loud because I’m like, “Should I be happy right now about this?” Because it’s like, actually, we pretty much almost have nothing. And it’s like, “This is great.”
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
Because it actually causes stress. And it’s not like this peaceful you know kind of thing. It’s like, oh, these are real issues.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Like this is really happening. So, like between my wife and I talking about it and our family decisions and things like that, and we’re like, “Okay, God, how much longer are you going to let us learn abandonment right now?” But I’m also like partly actually energized and excited about it.
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
Because it’s what I’ve been holding onto as like this is the one thing.
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
So it’s like, “Alright, we, I know that everything’s going to be okay.”
Fr. Louis:
Hmm.
Dr. Greg:
And it’s like, “Okay, maybe this is the best thing that could ever happen.”
Fr. Louis:
Absolutely.
Dr. Greg:
Because I don’t want to be the rich young man who’s like
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Sad about having built safety and security around their own self-sufficiency.
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
Like I will not be sad about that because I’m learning now, like in this moment. Like “No, my joy and my peace and my foundation is not gonna come from self-sufficiency.”
Fr. Louis:
Uhm. Amen.
Dr. Greg:
So praise God. It’s like awesome.
Fr. Louis:
Praise God. Indeed.
Dr. Greg:
I mean I think I learned the lesson, though we could finish it up now would maybe be out to the next part but, but still not my will but yours be done.
Fr. Louis:
That’s it. That’s it. Whenever we find ourselves taking the absolute safety in creatures or things, that’s when we’re in trouble. And that’s when we should say, “I need to start shedding so that I can be stripped to my attachment to God so that wherever, whatever is happening, I need to be anchored in Him knowing that He is the only indispensable, the only thing that will not go away, the only thing I absolutely need to be attached to, absolutely.” And that’s exactly what Jesus did to that young man. He shook him up a little bit.
Dr. Greg:
Uhm.
Fr. Louis:
He shook up his perspective and his safety net, because with God, you ought to be able to trust that you will fall in his arms, but God that you cannot see it. That’s what faith comes in. Faith is important. And the more you have, the more you build for yourself, the more you realize you could have less faith, not just intellectual faith, but trust, trusting and also faith that works through love or formed faith. It gets more and more dangerous. So you’re right. The thing is not with, the problem is not with the wealth. God bless the people with wealth. It’s the same God. That’s the Old Testament. That’s also of the New Testament. God would bless people with things. God can bless people with things here and now. These things must be put at the service of a abandonment to God, at the service of God’s people. And I tell people too, that they need the poor, the wealthy need the poor as much as the poor need them on several levels. But even on the basic level of you think you’re helping the poor by giving them a house, for example, that’s good. And they needed that house, but guess what? They could be saved. They could have eternal life without that house. You cannot have eternal life without you being generous and without being loving.
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
And so they help you more than you help them.
Dr. Greg:
That’s true.
Fr. Louis:
So don’t think about, “Look at me. You need to worship me.” No, you need to be like, “Oh my God, thank you for giving me this opportunity,”
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
“To exercise love.”
Fr. Louis:
True charity.
Dr. Greg:
That’s the right way to think about alms giving.
Fr. Louis:
That’s it.
Dr. Greg:
And works of mercy.
Fr. Louis:
That’s it. And that’s why the church can say, “When you don’t give, you’re stealing from the poor.”
Dr. Greg:
Yeah.
Fr. Louis:
It’s like, “Wait, I’m stealing. I earned this money.” [inaudible] and yeah. And with whose energy, whose health, who gave you your being, your breathing, everything else? Yeah you owe that to God. And that’s God’s beloved people. And He says, “You better give to them, so you don’t stealing their money.”
Dr. Greg:
Yeah. And it’s like, you know, as far as, like, I mean, abandonment as an idea is another one of these commandments now. It’s like it could be the commandment that, well, I am abandoned.
Fr. Louis:
Right.
Dr. Greg:
You know like, “I trust God. I trust in Divine Providence. I read the book, I even did Catholic mindfulness.” You know it’s like, but no, you have to feel it in your bones.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
That you don’t rely on yourself.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Like and it’s got to be because you’ve gotten to the point and you keep yourself at a point of experiencing a real stripping and a real detachment because of needing, needing Divine Providence. Needing it.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Like, if you’re hungry for food, you need food.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
You need to feel.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
The need for Divine Providence.
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
And so that’s why I think it’s a lot, like and I think that’s why wealthy people, it is harder because,
Fr. Louis:
You’re right.
Dr. Greg:
You got to create extra situations for yourself. You got to go above and beyond.
Fr. Louis:
And when you does, sometimes God allows you to experience that.
Dr. Greg:
Right.
Fr. Louis:
Have those circumstances for you because He loves you.
Dr. Greg:
Well, and I think He answers prayers too.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And it’s like, don’t let me get you know filled up on myself.
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
I’m self-sustaining because I’ve made all this money, or I’m building all these things, or we’re doing all this great stuff. It’s like, you could see this with reputation.
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
You know people. I think this is what happens a lot of times when celebrities, especially like religious celebrities, they get, they sort of get huge and then they fall?
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And it’s like all that, just self-sustaining, kind of like, “Well, I’m so great.”
Fr. Louis:
Right.
Dr. Greg:
And I get these accolades and all this validation.
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
Same thing. Christ is giving us the example of.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
Like you said, He sidesteps it.
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
Don’t even call me good.
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
Like it’s the reputation doesn’t matter, the money doesn’t matter. The success doesn’t matter like no matter what. And then it’s, yeah, we have to stay. We have to focus on, we have to focus on being abandoned.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And we have to look for ways to make that an experience we feel in our bones and keep our focus there. And then whatever happens over here with success, money, whatever, or it goes up, it goes down like pay no mind.
Fr. Louis:
That’s right.
Dr. Greg:
Like St. Paul.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
I could be rich, I could be poor.
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
But it’s like what’s the one thing that I’m actually focused on?
Fr. Louis:
I actually have seen and it’s an everyday reality with the poor amongst whom I live. The way that they will cry out to God for even the basic needs for food, for money to pay for their kids’ schooling.
Dr. Greg:
Uhm.
Fr. Louis:
It’s like, “Okay, I don’t have income. I don’t have insurance or for sickness.” They will come and they will cry out to God. It’s no wonder that worship looks a little different, for example, in certain countries than others.
Dr. Greg:
Yes.
Fr. Louis:
That’s one of the reasons. But like I will see my people like with tears just like begging God.
Dr. Greg:
Oh yeah.
Fr. Louis:
“You gotta help me. You gotta,” like, “You’re all I got.”
Dr. Greg:
Yes, that’s it. I mean, as parents, I think we feel that for our kids.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
If we have sick kids or if our kids are in trouble, the way that parents can cry out.
Fr. Louis:
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Greg:
But like that, that’s the human capacity.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Like think about that. If we all have the capacity, like that’s what some humanity could look like.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
When it’s desperate
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And in need and knows that they’re not in control and that’s somebody else is.
Fr. Louis:
Yep.
Dr. Greg:
So this is what it looks like to cry out in desperation for something.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And then it’s like, okay, if that’s what some humans are capable of
Fr. Louis:
Right.
Dr. Greg:
That’s probably what all humans should be seeking.
Fr. Louis:
Amen.
Dr. Greg:
Can we all develop that kind of
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
Relationship with God where we have that kind of deference, that kind of submission, that kind of detachment and abandonment to his providence.
Fr. Louis:
If I had to summarize with the other readings, I would say that the word of God that has come to us is like a double-edged sword that comes through and cuts through our hearts, our bones, and to help each one of us look into ourselves to say, how much am I actually abandoned to God?
Dr. Greg:
Yes.
Fr. Louis:
Or how much am I just trusting in myself and my money and my skills and my eloquence and whatever it is, right? Even as I priest, I’m gonna preach, “Oh, I preach several good homilies, so I’m sure I got this one.” Oh, really? Really? And God can let you go flat. Like am I really relying on God, on God alone? So the word comes to cut through us, each and every single one of us here. And those listening, obviously, we were able to be a bit vulnerable ourselves to model what it does like. It’s not, it wasn’t even with the thought of, well, we should show them what it’s like. It’s like, actually I’m realizing the word is talking to me right now, and that’s Hebrew. That’s what the second reading says. And when the word does that to us where we can accept it and embrace that divine, that abandonment, then we are wise. That’s wisdom. And that’s the first reading. And with that wisdom and with that abandonment Divine Providence, we are truly free to love. Because if I’m abandoned to God, I can give up myself because I’m securely anchored in God, and I can give. I can do charity not just in the you know, the conceptual sense, but in the actual handing this to my brother to the poor, whoever the poor is in my life. I can love more freely knowing that as I’m generous, I will be rewarded a hundred fold with a little caveat, a little persecution in there too.
Dr. Greg:
Yeah, it’s true. What was the word it was from? Was it about wisdom?
Fr. Louis:
With persecution? You mean in the gospel? This in the gospel. It does it. The Psalm talks about the love, and so all the readings are represented here in what we’re talking about, but eventually at the very last line it goes, “Jesus says to them, there was no one who was given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for my sake and for the sake of the gospel, who will not receive a hundred times more now in this present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children, and lands with persecutions and eternal life in the age to come.”
Dr. Greg:
I was thinking about that in Hebrews. It says that “Because the word of God is a living effective, sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even between soul and spirit, joints and marrow.”
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
And then you were just talking about the self-reflection, like understanding oneself, understanding one’s attachments,
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Understanding oneself. It’s like, that’s what I was thinking about this,
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
The sword piercing the interiority,
Fr. Louis:
Alleluia.
Dr. Greg:
A self-awareness
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
And cutting apart the attachments
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
From detachment.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
From the self-sufficiency,
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
From trust and Divine Providence.
Fr. Louis:
Wow.
Dr. Greg:
And that the cutting, the surgical precision of that scalpel cutting apart, that’s painful.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
That’s the purgation.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
It’s the interior purgation
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
Of I have to die to self.
Fr. Louis:
Yes.
Dr. Greg:
I have to let go of my attachments. That’s the sadness on the rich young man’s face as he walks away.
Fr. Louis:
Uhm.
Dr. Greg:
It’s like I’ve got to let go of all this that I’ve been holding onto building up for myself.
Fr. Louis:
Wow.
Dr. Greg:
If I really want to put myself in the riches of God.
Fr. Louis:
Wow. Oh my gosh.
Dr. Greg:
So it hurts, but it’s worth it.
Fr. Louis:
It’s completely worth it, and it’s all done out of love. That’s why the Lord does that surgery for us is out of love.
Dr. Greg:
Amen.
Fr. Louis:
And that’s also why He knows we can take persecution, because He knows once we are grounded and anchored at Him no matter what happens. That’s why I love that song. I forget the name of the composer. “It is well my soul” and the story behind it is craziest. Like, it’s not well, because he had a lot of wealth. He did use to have those. He lost it all. He lost his family. He lost his kids, all in the ocean. And as he was going over to go meet his wife over the spot where the ship was hit and lost his kids. Then he went into his room and wrote that song, “It is well with my soul.”
Dr. Greg:
Wow.
Fr. Louis:
Like no matter what happens, I can see this well with my soul. Oh my gosh.
Dr. Greg:
Wow.
Fr. Louis:
But the final thing I’d like to say, bro, is, right now today, many of us who might be listening or watching will have thought, “I’m one of the good ones you know. I am a good Christian, good Catholic. Look, I’m listening to a Sunday reading podcast. I am pretty good.” And the Lord is challenging each one of us today as the rich young man. You think you got it, but how much do you actually trust in Me and Me alone? Let’s abandon.
Dr. Greg:
Amen. Amen.
Fr. Louis:
Let’s say a prayer for us and for those who are with us, in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
Dr. Greg:
Amen.
Fr. Louis:
Father dear, heavenly Father, you call us to be perfect like You are. You also know that it’s impossible for us to do so on our own. Though it is impossible for us, as Jesus says in the gospel today, it is not impossible for You and only You can save us. So Father, help us to abandon ourselves to You today, to Your love, to trusting You. Help us to have deeper wisdom so that we can embrace You and realize that You are the only indispensable thing in our lives. We ask that You bless all those listening, those who are suffering, those who are hopeless, those who are in despair. Console them. Give them peace, the peace that only You can give even in the midst of persecution, even in the midst of the storms around them, we pray to our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit God, forever and ever.
Dr. Greg:
Amen.
Fr. Louis:
The Lord be with you.
Dr. Greg:
And with your spirit.
Fr. Louis:
May almighty God bless you, the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Dr. Greg:
Amen.
Fr. Louis:
Amen. Thank you.
Dr. Greg:
Thank you.
Fr. Louis:
Go in peace.
Dr. Greg:
Thanks be to God.
Thanks for listening to the Being Human Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed this episode and wanna help us spread the word and hear more, please head over to iTunes, leave us a review, and subscribe, as it really helps us to get our content out to more people. Be sure to listen next time as I take you deeper into what it means to be human. If you want more free content and information about what we do at the Catholic Psych Institute, head on over to catholicpsych.com. God bless you.