A Bishop’s Raw Story of Anxiety and Depression: Why ‘Try Harder’ Doesn’t Work – Episode 198

Transcript

Dr. Greg:
Hello and welcome to the Being Human Podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Greg Bottaro, and today I’ve got an awesome, super special, blessed conversation to share with you. Such a blessing to be able to speak with Bishop Conley. He is just an amazing leader, an example of humility and vulnerability and authenticity as a Bishop. And he has done such an amazing job in the diocese of Lincoln leading his flock and really the whole Church, really all of us, and what it means to show up and to follow Christ. And so we talked today about, well, so he’s recently released two pastoral letters. One was last May and it was on mental health. And so his letter’s called “A Future with Hope“ and it’s all about his own journey with anxiety and depression and taking a leave of absence and then ultimately getting the help that he needs.

AI-Generated transcript of this episode:

And then he comes back to his office as Bishop and now is leading with his letter and all the things he’s doing, trying to make certain moves in his diocese to really put the right attention on the issue of mental health and how that interacts with our faith. And then he came out recently with a second letter as if it wasn’t enough, and he’s now talking about Catholic education. And so it’s called the “Joy and Wonder of Catholic Education“. Both of these letters are going to be linked in our short show notes and they’re short reads, but they’re deep and they’re really powerful and really beautiful. So I definitely recommend to go check those out and I know this conversation will bless you. And so listen with openness and pray for the Holy Spirit to move your heart in any way that God wants to. God bless you.

I spent the last 10 years learning how to help people using the best techniques available in psychology, integrated with the Catholic faith. Now, we’ve figured out that there’s a better way to help people than just slapping a Catholic label on the same secular model of therapy you find anywhere else. The real question is how will we make this shift to a new model of truly Catholic accompaniment, keeping the psychological sciences in mind while opening up to a more human and more effective approach? This podcast is here to give you the answer. Join me and follow along as I take you behind the scenes of what this new model looks like, using recorded audio from sessions, working with my team, with colleagues, and even directly with clients. My name is Dr. Greg Bottaro, and I want to welcome you to the Being Human Podcast.

Dr. Greg:
Alright, let’s start. Should we start with a little prayer?

Bishop Conley:
Okay.

Dr. Greg:
Alright. In the name of the Father,

Bishop Conley:
In the name of Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Heavenly Father, we thank you for this day. We give you praise and glory as we invoke the Holy Spirit to be in our midst, to guide us, to guide our thoughts and words and actions that we might always glorify You. Praise You that You might use our words in our conversation to help others who may be viewing this podcast. We ask this through the intercession of Mary and all the angels and saints and everybody’s guardian, angel, saint, and in the name of Jesus Christ, your Son, [inaudible] Son, Holy Spirit. Amen.

Dr. Greg:
Amen. Well, Bishop, I am so grateful for you to be with us today and have this opportunity to chat with you. You’ve quite, you’ve caused quite a stir in the world of Catholic mental health. Absolutely. And the best way possible, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, obviously what we’re doing in trying to integrate psychology with the faith is consistent with the intentions and desires of the Church and with the Bishops. But a lot of times it can feel like we’re sort of in this compartment, we’re in this like sort of other room or even other house or maybe even other state or country trying to get this work out. And to have this sort of a trend of this sort of Episcopal support developing has been so edifying and consoling, but even more so to have your work to become so directly connected with you sharing your own personal story, you using your office writing letters of support and consideration in these areas. I can’t tell you on behalf of Catholic therapists how grateful we are for your putting yourself out there like this.

Bishop Conley:
Well, thank you. I appreciate, like I said, it wasn’t intentional. I kind of backed into this whole thing. And so, I don’t have a background or anything in this in psychology. I was an English major in college and studied Theology, but I think is all divine providence really as is so many things, as are so many things. But I think that not only in my own particular story, but also with regard to the Church. I think that, and in a broader sense too, in culture, I think we’re beginning maybe to recognize the importance of mental health in a way that we never have before. I mean, I watch a lot of sports, and there’s a lot of money being spent on advertising now with regard to, you know, the stigma that surrounds mental health and professional athletics and things like that. So I think that the world is coming of also coming along and understanding how important it is, so and you know and with regard to the Church, I mean, again, providentially, I’ve been serving on the US Bishops Committee for Mary’s Lady Family Life and Youth. And I chaired the subcommittee on the Promotion and Defense of Marriage leading up to the [inaudible] decision sanctioning same sex marriages in the civil courts. But that has taken a turn with the leadership of Bishop Barron. And so our committee has really jumped in at both feet you know declaring last year at our November meeting, the importance of mental health and this awareness week, which where today is you know the conclusion of that nine day novena,

Bishop Conley:
Yes.

Dr. Greg:
For on the Feast of St., we’re recording these on the feast of St. Luke, which is the St. Luke, the patron saint of physicians. And it just today concludes a nine day novena that US Bishops have called to pray for, you know, for a greater awareness of mental health and a better response to mental health issues in the Church. So I think all of this is very, in Bishop Borys Gudziak, and Archbishop or and Bishop Robert Barron have really taken a great leadership in this whole area. So it’s all providential I think. It’s all good.

Dr. Greg:
It is all providential and it is all good and it’s a significant move in the direction of offering a deeper proposal to the world from a Catholic position of the truth of Christ and really who Christ is and what the incarnation has to share with all the world. And so I’m just so edified that there’s this coming together of from the top down organizationally with the USCCB, with the great work that Bishop Barron is doing and with that committee and then also, but like I said, really just personally you sharing so much. And so going back to May 24 that that you know, May was that the month for mental health awareness and you issued your letter sharing your own personal story. And just such a beautiful and generous and gentle offering of your pastoral care. Like really shepherding your flock in this beautiful leadership and giving your own story. It’ like, it takes a lot to you say you just sort of, this happened to you almost accidentally. You didn’t choose to be in this position, but I mean, I know personally a lot of bishops that are struggling with at different points in their life, different mental health issues, and they don’t share their story with the world in such a public manner as you did. So it takes courage, it takes a real freedom of choice and decision to do that. And I, you know, I just want to really validate that from our perspective as the laity, how meaningful that is. And also just to kind of dig into that a little bit, what kind of preempted you thinking that this is something you have to do publicly?

Bishop Conley:
Yeah, no, that’s a good question. And like I said, again, it wasn’t intentional. I mean obviously it was intentional in those decisions that I made kind of leading up to my public disclosure, but it was so guided by truth, indicted by the Holy Spirit. I just knew a lot of people say how brave you are and courageous. Well, I was in a very vulnerable position when I had to make these very important decisions and, you know, and I was worried about a lot of things as most people are. And I was very fearful. I mean, when you’re in a position of leadership like a Bishop or anyone who’s in a head of a family, let’s say a father of a family or someone who’s employed in a high pressure job like an athlete, we talked about that a little bit, I mean, you know that the decisions you make are gonna have an impact on a larger audience, you know.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
And so it’s not like, you know, what my every, every, all of my acts are public acts because I’m in this position. So I was well aware of that. But I suppose kind of leading up to my decision to sort of go public with it all was kind a beautiful sequence of events because, and we can kind of talk back from that a little bit, but, you know I came to the point that it was clear to me and it was made clear to me by those who were closest to me, my sister, my best friend you know, my other Bishop friends as well, my staff you know, everything was, you know, you are hurt and you need some help. And I had been getting some help and I’d been fairly public about that, but not too public, you know, but to make a big decision like to step away, you know, basically to take time off for a Bishop, it’s kind of complicated because my immediate superior is Pope.

So in order to do that, you know I have to get permission. And the representative of the Holy Father in any country for Bishops is the Apostolic Nuncio in Washington. So I kind of leading up to the November 2019 US Bishops Conference. The weeks preceding, I realized it was clear to me that I needed to step away. I needed to get out of the situation I was in. To get some rest and to get some help and to get out from the pressures, all those kind of things. And so that’s when I came to the Apostolic Nuncio, Cardinal Pierre, Christophe Pierre in the meeting in Baltimore. And I approached him between you know during one of the days there, asked if I could have a meeting with them. And I brought with me, you know several Bishops who I had confided in and just said, “I need to take some time off.” And I didn’t know what he was going to say or what kind of reaction I would receive, but he was, you know wonderful. He was like a father.

Dr. Greg:
So you brought Bishops with you as support backup as to give evidence of the need or?

Bishop Conley:
No, also, I had to set up who’s going to take care of the diocese. I had already thought ahead. Like if I stepped down, if permission is given, then I would need to have some plan in place, you know. And so I brought the Archbishop of Omaha, who’s my Metropolitan Provincial Archbishop, Archbishop Lucas. I also brought Bishop Olmsted, who’s the Bishop of Phoenix. Where am I going to go? I already talked to him. I could go to, I wanted to go to some place sunny, you know. We’re going into the winter, you know. And I didn’t want to

Dr. Greg:
Get a Vitamin D.

Bishop Conley:
I didn’t want to go to some dark, dark cold place. I wanted to go to some bright warm place. And so Bishop Olmsted, who was priest of the diocese of Lincoln, but also my former Bishop in Wichita. So I knew him and had a good relationship with him. And I talked to him about, “Hey, can I come down if I’m given this lead, could I come down and spend some time with you, and you know, in a place?” And he had a wonderful little retreat center where a number of retired priests have residences there. And he said, “Yeah, we got plenty of room.” And so I had that plan. And then I had Archbishop Coakley, who is my closest friend, and then Bishop Wall, Jim Wall, who is another close friend, fellow Camino brother. In fact, we just got finished walking the Camino de Santiago last week, Sunday we got back. So I brought friends and then those who could help me. And then I presented this plan. And immediately the Apostolic Nuncio was very open and he said, “Yeah.” He said, “You do look a mess.” He said, “You look terrible.” He said, “You’re exhausted, you’re not sleeping”, you know. I kind of told him what conditions and symptoms. He said “Yeah, you need o get some help.” He said, “Let me contact the Holy Father and see if that’s possible.” And so it wasn’t a very long conversation, maybe about 15 minutes, something like that. So that was kind of a relief. And then I said, if the permission’s given, you know what, this was a key moment. I said, if the permission is given, what should I say? How should I message this? What should I say as far as a public statement goes, you know? And he goes, “Just say the truth. Tell them you’re exhausted. You tell them you’re suffering from insomnia and anxiety and depression, and you need to get away.”

Dr. Greg:
Wow.

Bishop Conley:
And I said, “Okay, that’s easy.” That’s just, you know, just say what’s going on. And so, you know, in a circumstance, it kind of took the pressure off of me and my communication team to come up with just the right language, you know, to kind of, you know, to be, you know, to craft a statement, so to speak. And all that’s,

Dr. Greg:
Oh, I just, I. We got to stop on this for a minute because this is so profound. I mean, you say, “Okay, that’s easy,” but wait a minute. There’s nothing easy about admitting to the, like, real conclusions and ramifications of what you just said, for men, especially, for leaders especially, and I can imagine the easy part is, okay, under obedience, like you’re being given direction here from the Apostolic Nuncio. Like, this is very clear, like, okay, this is how to handle it. It clears up the PR issue really fast.

Bishop Conley:
Right.

Dr. Greg:
But personally, I mean even to get to this point, I can’t even imagine how many different steps and hurdles you had to jump over internally even to build this team, to build out this thought process, this game plan. How you’re going to handle this. I mean, so many internal hurdles to jump over to get to that point. This is not easy.

Bishop Conley:
Yeah, I mean, like I said, let’s see, we can go back up from that. That was sort of like the conclusion of a lot of steps that led up to it. And again, like I said at the beginning, I was in the very vulnerable [inaudible]. This had been going on for a couple of years. I can marked the beginning of it in Summer of 2018.

Dr. Greg:
Uhm.

Bishop Conley:
But we’re talking now a year and a half later, right? And the initial months when I began to notice, first of all, you know the lack of sleep because I had all these things on my, you know, on my plate that both, you know, with regard to the situation in the Church universal, that was the Summer of the McCarrick disclosures and

Dr. Greg:
Right.

Bishop Conley:
Which was a big blow. It’s sort of like the second big wave of clergy misconduct and could a sexual abuse scandal. 2002 was when it kind of broke big and then 2018 was another big. And so, that was the first kind of, kind of blow to the, you know, to, to, to. To all of us, to every. Not just Bishops, but to the whole Church. Like a body blow to the Church. And we were all shaking from that whole disclosure that summer of ’18, and then that kind of set off a ripple of all kinds of things everywhere. But in my diocese, we had a couple of cases of clergy misconduct. We had also, the Attorney General announced that there was going to be an investigation of all three dioceses in Nebraska and we had to turn over all of our personnel files. All the historic cases, and we had never done that obviously. And so there was that, and we had to do it by court order, so we had to do that. So lawyers were involved, and so we had all this thing going on, and then there was also another series of things that happened at a priest that was very sick and he died. And then I had, we had a couple of parish schools that had been floundering for years and finally had decided we had to close those schools, the Pastors in those parishes and the parish councils decided, yes, we can’t sustain these schools. I’m just naming a few things. My sister was diagnosed with breast cancer, you know, all these kind of things.

And so I found myself in the Fall of ’18 kind of ruminating all these things and one of the first mistakes, I guess you could say, looking back, hindsight’s always 2020 was thinking that as the Bishop, I have to solve this stuff. The buck stops me, so I’ve got to come up with the answers. I’ve got to solve all these things and you know, kind of come up with responses to all this. And, so I had found myself just thinking, thinking, thinking. And you know, what I came to kind of discover later on as I recovered after I came back. And with the help of Dr. Bob Schutz and people like that, this sort of very American mentality, and I’m sure you come across a lot as a psychotherapist that is sort of ungodly self-reliance.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
A very American thing. My father was a gunner on an aircraft carrier, and he was a professional baseball player, and he played with the Yankee system. He never made it to the big leagues, but he was kind of your typical, the greatest generation guy. I loved my father. He’s, he was mentor to me and my coach also growing up. But he was from that generation that if you know, if it’s tough, you just work harder you know.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Bishop Conley:
You pull yourself up by your bootstraps and you just keep you know white knuckling it and you just keep forging ahead. So that was in my DNA, you know, and so you know that was something that was driving me. We just keep you know we can get through this. We’re going to tough this out. We’re going to keep going. And this, that’s the way I lived through that Fall of ’18 and then ’19. And just, but it was just grinding me down because it began with no sleep you know. Then you realize after a couple months that I hadn’t had a good night’s sleep, probably three months.

Dr. Greg:
Wow.

Bishop Conley:
Then the anxiety, which was sort of there kind you know, kind of, kind of in a subtle way you can, you can to get more and more pronounced you know, like the fear.

Dr. Greg:
Well, I just, can imagine that as a Bishop, I mean, this is how Bishops typically feel.

Bishop Conley:
Yeah.

Dr. Greg:
And I just know from these conversations, it’s like, and even the priesthood, there’s so many men who are just saying, “Yeah, that’s the life. That’s the vocation right now. That’s where we’re at in the Church. You have to toughen up, you just have to man up. You have to just you know try harder.” And there’s that Americanism spirit in it. And then there’s also the circumstances where that we’re in, and it’s a very sort of missionary state of the Church that we’re in, and it’s like, “Okay, so yeah, work harder. What are you complaining about?” So, but you had to break through that.

Bishop Conley:
Yeah, well, you know, and, but I, you know, it took me a long time. I didn’t, didn’t, you know, I kept pushing, pushing, working and then you know, looking back into the Spring of 2018, so let’s say six, eight months into it. I just kind of, the anxiety, the thing that really kind of flipped for me, and again, I don’t have any history of mental health issues in my family. So there was no childhood trauma like many people do. And I really sympathize with those who do. But I had no, you know, events in my childhood or anything might have been sort of a predisposition towards a mental health crisis. Mine was all situational and just the pressures. And so I finally, I’m the National Episcopal Advisor to the Catholic Medical Association. So I have a lot of physician friends, and I have a couple really close friends who are at the Mayo Clinic. And so one friend of mine said, “Hey, why don’t you just go up to the Mayo Clinic and just see how you’re doing, just get a full forensic physical because you know, things you’re not getting any better.” And up to that point, I really hadn’t, you know, hadn’t taken sleeping medication to get some sleep. But you know how that key puts you to sleep, not really sleep.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Bishop Conley:
I think, I think, I never really felt like I was rested even though I was asleep.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah. That’s a good quick fix for some people, but it’s definitely not a long-term solution.

Bishop Conley:
Right, right. And so I was doing that, and so I was getting sleep, but then, so I went up in March of 2018 and I had a full two day, you know, full physical the Mayo Clinic, so, which I highly recommend if anybody can have a chance to do that. It’s great. Stayed with my friends up there. Because I was totally transparent with them while I was there and went through the whole battery test and was diagnosed with anxiety, PTSD, situational PTSD and major depression disorder.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Bishop Conley:
And so I said, “Okay, makes sense.” Because up to that point, what really kind of brought me to that point was toughing it, toughing it out. And then I got to the point where little did I know, but depression was coming in because I started to saying, “I don’t want to do this anymore you know. I’m out of here. This is, I don’t have a hope. My desire, my joy about doing my job, which I never had, never had suffered from this the loss.” That’s the worst thing. I’d say the loss of joy, you know.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Bishop Conley:
To get up and say, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t even want to come into the office. I didn’t want to, I just want to stay in bed. “

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Bishop Conley:
And that’s obviously depression. I didn’t even realize it, but that’s where depression comes.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Bishop Conley:
And so that’s what I was diagnosed and it kind of all made sense to me. So now I know. And that was actually kind of a breakthrough in the sense that, “Okay, I see how I got here.” Because they walked it through with me and they asked how you know, what were, what were the events and everything, and it was basically the PTSD. Through these things were happening. And so then I went, I got, I got a good, found a good psychotherapist and set up an appointment, can took a little more seriously spiritual direction, which I can, you know, as priests and Bishops we can like sometimes we go up and down as far as spiritual direction. We’re spiritual directors, so why do we need a spiritual director?

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
So I took it. So I made sure I got locked in on a good spiritual director and I went on medication. You know, I just knew I had to have some sort of help, you know, in antidepressants and those kinds of things. And as you know in that area, it’s always a trial and error hit and miss, you know. The different concoctions that we try. So I started that regimen of spiritual direction and therapy and medication and it helped for a while. And so into the Summer and into the Fall but then I couldn’t get past a certain thing. I mean the joy was still gone. And just the depression I think really was became heavier and heavier. And it was really the Fall of 2019 that my sister and people close to me said, “Yeah, you’re just going to have to get away if you’re going to get better, except to get away.”

And so then the questions you’re talking about, you know, admitting that I needed help and that I couldn’t fix myself and that I had to kind of be very honest with myself about it, realizing, you know that I’m not able to function. And there’s where I think, the, you were alluding to as a man, you don’t want to admit this weakness, you know. Especially as somebody in a position leadership. Then you think all kinds of things. Well, if you show this weakness, well then you know you’re gonna have to give it up for good. You’re not gonna be able to come back or you’re wounded and you’re never

Dr. Greg:
We won’t trust you.

Bishop Conley:
We don’t trust you. He, he’s flawed you know, he’s never gonna be able to go back into that position again because he’ll just fail, fall again.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah:

Bishop Conley:
So all those fears, kind of, you know, we’re saying, if I do ask for leave you know, that might be it. They might say, “Well, okay, let’s just retire, go into the sunset you know. And you kind of you’ve been done a good job for a while, but you’re never gonna be able to go back to that pressure of seed again.”

Dr. Greg:
I mean, the rock and a hard place that this fear could put you in is unbelievable because like your whole reason for seeking help is because you had such joy in this vocation and you’re losing the joy. You want to have a restoration of joy. You want to come back to the vocation with joy. But then it’s like, “Well, if I’m admitting that there’s this problem, I might not ever be invited back into this position.”

Bishop Conley:
Right.

Dr. Greg:
To be put out to pasture, you know.

Bishop Conley:
Exactly. It’s then like what?

Dr. Greg:
And then you, you could have your drugs, your medication, and maybe some sense of peace, but now you’re doing what, because of what it took to get a resolution or a remediation of this experience.

Bishop Conley:
Exactly. You know, and I, in those thoughts went through my mind, you know. Okay, let’s say, let’s look at the worst case scenario. Let’s say I take the time off and I’m saying, then I comes back, “Okay, we’ll you’ll take a permanent time off now. You’re going to retire and spend the rest of your years in retirement.” I say, “Okay,” that you know, I like to play golf. Would I like to play golf every day, you know? That’s not so bad, you know. But then I, you know, I tried to even think that what it would be like to be retired early. And then also you also think about your own reputation and there’s what kind of vanity comes in like, “Oh, yeah, too bad about him, you know. He was good, but boy, he crashed and he’s kind of out to pasture now.”

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
All these kinds of things, pride, especially as a man you have. And you know, and trying to make the best case of it. It’s [inaudible] really become a good golfer because I play every day. Things like that, you know,  and you need to make all these kind of ways to make the best of it. If you, if I didn’t, if I wasn’t able to come back.

Dr. Greg:
So that means that you were processing, and I’ll only go as deep as you want to if feel comfortable here, but into your own actual spiritual life. But it sounds like you were processing the acceptance of the possibility that you actually had to surrender your potential role as Bishop or even your potential reputation. It sounds like you had to get to a place where you’re willing to say “Your will be done” and give that up.

Bishop Conley:
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, you mentioned surrender. I was given that beautiful prayer, surrender prayer. I talk about that in my pastoral letter. I began to pray that a lot. Every day. I still do. That idea of surrendering everything, your reputation, you know, your everything. I mean, it’s a radical surrender like Jesus on the cross. I mean, you know, that’s really what it is. I mean, that’s what we’re all called to, and it’s not just surrendering the things that we can let go of, but it’s surrendering everything.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
And so that through praying that prayer really was sort of like, “Okay, if that’s what You’re calling me to, Lord, I’ll surrender everything. And I don’t, you know, want to. And I think that I still have years ahead of me to serve as a Bishop, but if this is what is required of me, then I know I have to let go of that even.” And so that was a big kind of realization that, and I think it was a key thing to let go of, even that [inaudible].

Dr. Greg:
Sorry, what was that?

Bishop Conley:
It was all open-ended, you know. I didn’t really,

Dr. Greg:
Open-ended.

Bishop Conley:
I didn’t really have, I mean, I thought maybe, I mean best case scenario, I thought maybe, “Okay, I’ll be gone for a couple months.” But then it’s interesting because again, Providence, I say this often in 2019, December 13th, I remember the day very well. I was granted permission to take a leave of absence. And then in March of 2020, the whole world took a leave of absence.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Bishop Conley:
With the pandemic. So then that whole experience, it was so surreal. Here, you know, I’m out of a job more or less and I’m in a different state and a wholly different thing than I’ve ever been in my life. And then the whole world is just put on hold with this really strange COVID-19, you know, epidemic. That ah,

Dr. Greg:
Was that a kind of consolation to know that the rest of the world was sort of joining you in.

Bishop Conley:
It’s funny you’re missing that in a way. It was sort of in a strange way, kind of was like, okay, world now you know what it’s like to be shaken out of your boots and you can’t go out of your house and you’re isolated and you can’t do your normal stuff, you know. So, in a way, it was kind of funny. It was kind of a, I thought about that a lot, you know. Wow, now the whole world. [inaudible] I’m gonna take a leave of absence. It’s a good time to do it, you know.

Dr. Greg:
Exactly. Well, I’ve been reflecting on this a lot lately. We recently had the Sunday gospel of the rich young man, and I really believe that, you know, in the Church and whether it’s the hierarchy of the Church or even just the sort of celebrity status of certain influencers, you know, Catholic influencers. The more you have to lose, the harder it is to give up everything and, you know, all those things that you’re talking about, having to surrender, you know, it’s like, you know, it’s like wealth in a sense of position and responsibility and all these things that you have all the more reason to hold onto. And I just find so many people in leadership understandably struggle to really let go of all the things they could lose by being authentic and following truth through to its fullest conclusions the way that you’ve been able to. And so, yeah, I just, I just, I love hearing your story and I’m so grateful to your honesty and it really is courageous. Obviously, grace was there to support you, but it’s also really important to name it because I know there are people in leadership who are struggling with these things and they need to know that it’s okay to let go.

Bishop Conley:
Yeah, no, it’s true. It’s you know, it’s okay to admit that you know that we’re, that we’re frail, you know and that we really are, we’re not invincible and that we are human and that we, it’s okay to reach out for help and that there are people who love us and who can help us and who can make us you know, better, and while, you know, when we are struggling. And the worst thing is to think that we’re all alone or to think that there’s nobody there to help me or that my particular struggles or my particular situation is unique.

Dr. Greg:
Uhm.

Bishop Conley:
Nobody else is experiencing what I’m experiencing and therefore I’ve got to keep it to myself and not share it with anybody because it’s so bad that nobody will understand it.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah, yeah and I think if you’re a Bishop or if you’re a father of a family or a mother of a family, I mean, it’s just, you know, we all have ways in which we interpret our situation to come up with these defenses against that really authentic acknowledgement of need. So I know coming from your position, hearing you say these things is so impactful. So if kind of moving forward and just seeing, there’s so much I wanted to get to, but your story is so important and I feel like we could definitely do another episode. You have this letter on mental health, which we’re going to post everything in the show notes that people can go deeper into what you’re reading, what you’re saying about. And then also the second letter on education. And so, and it’s really interesting. You’re talking about joy, your own experience of joy, and then you mark the need for joy in the education of our children. But there are so many connections between mental health and then the education of children and what the role and responsibility is of the Church today and guiding and providing educational pathways for kids. So how much of your story personally relates to then the development of you writing this new letter that was recently released?

Bishop Conley:
It has everything to do with it because in fact, that’s why I chose the name, “The Joy and Wonder of Catholic Education”, and the subtitle is “Developing Authentically Catholic Schools” because I think that I actually had started drafting this letter on education back in 2017. So it was before any of my struggles, and it was put on hold with my own personal situation. But, and I’m glad it was put on hold because then after the pastoral letter on mental health, I got back to working on this one. And because they’re very much connected. You know one of the things that we live in the world in which we live right now is so much affected by technology. And we live in such a world in our minds and a virtual in our minds, and we’re in front of screens like we are right now

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Bishop Conley:
So much of the time, and we’re removed from really reals. What I like to talk about, what I mean by that, is nature, outdoors, but real friendships, real conversation, no real encounters, those kinds of things in a world of screens and in a virtual world, we’re removed from that. And in our education you know, our schools have gone so much down this pathway of technology that we’re losing those real encounters and not even to mention the real encounter with Jesus in our prayer life. So all of this is interrelated, and the theme of my pastoral letter is sort of getting back to the real encounter with truth, goodness, knowledge through learning and those and learning is, is I think is a kind of friendship that exists in a community with the teacher and classmates where we are in real situations. And so that’s really at the heart of this pastoral letter. And you know, I mentioned them before we went on the air, what I think is one of probably the most important books to come out in the last 10 years or more, and that’s Jonathan Haidt’s book, The Anxious Generation.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
And the disturbing rise of mental illness in this new generation of young people who’ve had this you know complete, where the smartphone has been ubiquitous you know in their anybody 30 years, Gen Z, anybody 30 years or younger, and those are all our students in our schools. Right?

Dr. Greg:
Right.

Bishop Conley:
And because their whole life is really, and it’s not just things like pornography that’s bad, but it’s just living in this world of social media, this world of screens. And she does a beautiful job of contrasting the difference between a screen-based childhood and a play-based childhood.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
And he used that word purposely play-based, because that’s what children need is play. And play is interesting, comes from the Greek word, which is the word for leisure, “scholē”. And our schools should be places where children experience true play.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
Especially in the elementary years where they have real encounters, they build friendships, they learn to take risks, they learn to discover and all that creative thing. And, so that has to be, and as a result of that you know, they’re born in wonder and joy, and that’s where you really cultivate the joy and wonder of learning in our schools. So kind of a roundabout way, I do think that you know an antidote, maybe not the antidote to the rise in mental illness among young people can very much have to do with the school and the home. And the last two chapters in that book, on Haidt is I think very important and is what can schools do and what parents do.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
And that brings it right to full circle about, you know, how do we address mental health.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah. And it’s a really Catholic approach.

Bishop Conley:
It is.

Dr. Greg:
Which is, it’s just so fascinating. How, I mean, every problem that we have coming up in culture has a solution through the lens of a Catholic worldview. And it’s like.

Bishop Conley:
In a proper anthropology.

Dr. Greg:
A proper anthropology?

Bishop Conley:
Who we are, we’ve lost, we don’t know who we are, we don’t know if we’re male or female, we don’t know all these kind of things that are really kind of fundamental you know, anthropological in who we are, who we are as persons. We are made in the image and likeness of God. We’re sons and daughters of the Father. We’re loved into this world. And yes, we suffer from original sin and we’re not, you know, we we have, we have to struggle, but we are created good.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
We’re created with love. And God has sent his son Jesus to save us and to show us the way, the truth and the life, and we don’t have to change who we are in the sense of, you know, that we’re somehow mistaken. We’re mistakes, but we have to learn to live with our flaws and our weaknesses, but also to see that there’s so much good and joy and truth and goodness and beauty in what we’re called to.

Dr. Greg:
That’s everything. I mean, that’s our whole mission at Catholic Psych. That’s why this podcast is called “Being Human”.

Bishop Conley:
Yeah.

Dr. Greg:
It’s all about, and the missing piece here, the Church has it, we just haven’t unpacked it enough and we’re not letting it guide us enough. We have the work, the anthropology of St. John Paul II and you know everything he wrote and everything that was part of his, especially part of his pontificate. We see the family through Familiaris Consortio and lots of other documents. We see, even Ex Corde Ecclesiae, we’re talking about Catholic education. I mean the bridge between the family and educational institutions, the family as the cell of society, all of these different things are all deeply Catholic in its worldview, its anthropology, and this gives the world a proposal that will actually solve the world’s problems.

Bishop Conley:
Right, right, right. We don’t have to reinvent the wheel. It’s all there.

Dr. Greg:
Exactly. And you know unfortunately, we’re still stuck. I think we’re still grappling with ways in which we have to interact with the world as a Church. So our educational systems have to, on some level, follow certain secular state mandated norms, or even in mental health on some level, we have to be able to interface with the secular norms. And it’s like, okay, that’s a really hard line to balance because we want to communicate with the secular world, but we also can’t surrender our deepest understanding of anthropology and worldview to the secular world, which is obviously so upside down and confused. So creating new institutions, new paradigms, new programs that maintain that balance between a core Catholic approach, that’s also you know we’re not, some people took the whole sort of Benedictine option to this extreme where we just build these communes and bunkers in the mountains and

Bishop Conley:
Bunker down.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah. Well, okay. I think that’s one approach, but maybe there’s also like a sort of a wider approach where it’s like how do we create Catholic community within the community, within the society, which means we have to interface, we have to communicate, we have to be able to dialogue with where things are at. And obviously it’s messy. Some people lean one way, some people lean the other,

Bishop Conley:
Right.

Dr. Greg:
But this is the work in progress. So we are trying to figure out how to best approach that. We’re creating educational programs. We have a curriculum we’re developing, we have a whole approach to bringing our Catholic mission and standard of mental health into school systems, which we’ll work with faculty and staff and also the classroom and administration talking about leadership. But it’s still one of the questions that comes up in doing all of this is, alright, “Well how far is the school really supposed to go in solving for these problems?” You know, because a school is supposed to teach, it’s an educational institution, but what role does a Catholic institution of education really have and in meeting these more basic human needs. That kids might be coming in with or that even the teachers might be coming in with.

Bishop Conley:
Right.

Dr. Greg:
What do you say to that?

Bishop Conley:
Well, you know, I think the fundamental social teaching Church, social doctrine is parents are the first to primary educators of their children. And I talk about that at the very beginning of the pastoral letter on education. That’s a fundamental principle. So the schools and every other institution that we have in the Church is meant to come alongside parents to assist it. Well, we know that parents are in the middle kind of middle of the bullseye when it comes to culture. They’re desperately trying to find ways to raise children. And I think most parents love their kids and they want what’s best for their kids, but they don’t know what to do because all of this tsunami of chaos is just all around us. It’s the air we breathe, it’s the water we swimming. So what is a parent to do? And there’s where I think the Church can help navigate these waters you know, those who are trained like yourself in the area of psychology, people who are trained in education with the proper Christian anthropology, understanding how a child learns.

The whole Montessori movement I think is a wonderful thing. The good Catechesis of the Good Shepherd, homeschooling all these things. What I see is, and this is a very hopeful note, I see that, yeah, I think out of desperation, some have taken the Benedict option. I’m pulling my kids out, we’re going to educate them at home, we’re gonna hunker down and we’re gonna try to protect them in this bubble. They’re only doing that because they love their kids and they see the terrible things that can happen in the world. But I think that we’re getting to a point where it’s gonna be both in. There’re gonna be people who do that, but then there’s also the schools are gonna take a page out of the playbook of the homeschooling communities and say, “Look, this is working at this real micro level with homes”. Because you run into the kids that are homeschooled and yeah, maybe their social skills are maybe a little bit insulated, whatever.

But these kids are different. These kids are loved, they’re secure, they’re confident, they’re smarter than most kids because parents have taken this very serious radical approach to teach them. Well, I’m not saying that’s the way to go, and I’m not saying that this is better. I think we need to all be together. We need to work together, and we got to think outside the box. Like we never have before what is best for our children. And it could be a combination of homeschooling, certainly schools, I got, I have 24 elementary schools and 6 high schools, and I’m all in with these schools and these institutions. I have to, we have to. But I think that there has to be a transformation and renewal in the institutions. And I’m not only talking about education, I’m talking about healthcare as well, that we have to put Christ back at the center of healthcare. Because now when we talk about healthcare, and I know, I’m deeply immersed into that world that it’s the Episcopal advisor, and I’m also one of the founding members of the Catholic Healthcare Leadership Alliance, which is trying to put Christ back into the center of healthcare. We got to think outside the box about healthcare delivery. So these small clinics that are springing up all over, like Bella, like St. Gianna’s Clinic in Green Bay. And all these places that are sort of finding new ways to bring the Divine Physician, the healing love of Jesus into the medical field.

Dr. Greg:
Amen.

Dr. Greg:
And I had a chance to be with 55 medical students and residents this Summer, and they’re preparing to go into the medical profession. And I’m very hopeful because they know exactly what’s happening in their profession, and they really want to be truly Catholic and truly professional in their physique. So I know I’m getting off marks here, but I think I do see that that you know it’s, it’s in a way kind of the pandemic has speed things up, okay. Now we’ve gonna make decisions. Are we gonna go along with the flow? Are we gonna forge out in a way that is radical, but it’s the only way forward? Otherwise we’re toast as we say otherwise.

Dr. Greg:
Are we getting a sneak preview of your next letter?

Bishop Conley:
No, no.

Dr. Greg:
In terms of healthcare and,

Bishop Conley:
Well, I don’t know. Maybe, I don’t know. But I thought about that. But I think that’s, I’ve kind of caught the realization, and I’ve said this publicly a lot. You know I’m already in the fourth quarter, maybe I’ve got some overtime you know, but you know Jesus was both a teacher and a healer. So, Rabboni, teacher and the divine physician. So education and healthcare, those are at the very heart of the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Dr. Greg:
Yes.

Bishop Conley:
And that’s where we have to focus. And that’s a Bishop that’s where I am to focus, education and healthcare. Those are the two areas where that’s, it all happens. And so there’s where the renewal is going to take place, I believe.

Dr. Greg:
Amen. I hope we’re not even close to the fourth quarter for you. And I don’t think that God, I mean kind of going back to the beginning of our conversation in terms of what you were afraid of giving up, but you had to, in faith, surrender, having gone through that gauntlet, having gone through the cross, not avoiding and running away from, but turning towards and going through the cross. And of course it’s not a static reality. It’s not a one-time thing, but that particular difficulty of your own interior experience at that point in your life and coming out on the other side of it, it’s very clear that you didn’t give up what you were afraid of losing. You didn’t lose what you were afraid of losing. And it seems like maybe you can speak to that. What have you actually gained in that regard?

Bishop Conley:
Well, I think I’ve been given a second chance in a way, I’m very acutely aware of that. Okay, you could have very easily given up all this and become a pretty good golfer. But no, the Lord wasn’t finished with me. And he did have another chapter that he wanted to write as far as my Episcopal Ministry. And so I got to make use of this overtime, you might say this gift to have this another chance at it.

Dr. Greg:
It’s the a hundred fold, isn’t it? You gave up father, mother, and brother and sister and child, and what you were afraid of losing, you actually received back as Jesus promises that we will.

Bishop Conley:
Right. And I think learning those lessons, maybe prior to my crisis, I thought it was all up to me. And I were relying on my own talents and gifts, and I was very self-conscious about that and probably pride and vanity kept me from really letting God work through me. One of my heroes and mentors, and I just was privileged to celebrate his 80th birthday mass, Archbishop Charles Chaput. One of the things that Archbishop Chaput taught me, and I never really put it into action, like I need to and I want to, is he says, “My job as a Bishop is to get out the way of the Holy Spirit.” It’s to get out of the way and let the Holy Spirit, like St. Paul says, “It’s no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” And I think for all of us, that’s it. We’re the ones, we’re our worst enemies in the sense that our own pride and vanity and relying on our own talents and gifts gets in the way of really Christ working through us to do great things. And that was a lesson that I had to learn the hard way that I’ve got to give it all up. And then when you’re completely surrender to the Lord and it’s in our weakness, and that’s the key thing, that it’s in our vulnerability and our weakness and our surrender, like St. Paul says that we are most powerful.

Dr. Greg:
Amen. I can’t think of a better note to end on than that. And so grateful for you, for your time, for your witness, for sharing all of this so authentically and just yeah, again, as a Laity in the Church, just so edified and consoled by your leadership and your strength and courage in witnessing to us that He is trustworthy and that we can believe the promises that Christ has made and it’s worth it.

Bishop Conley:
Well, thank you. I have to say shout out to you because when I was sort of in the darkest moments, I was looking for everything, Googling and searching the internet and all kinds of stuff, and I came across the podcasts you know and I, and I, and you, and your what’s who’s your partners? What’s his name?

Dr. Greg:
Dr. Brian Violet.

Bishop Conley:
Yeah.

Dr. Greg:
Yeah.

Bishop Conley:
So you guys, and I listened to a lot of your podcasts and just when I was trying to just understand my own psychological situation, it was very helpful. So thank you.

Dr. Greg:
Wow, that’s awesome. Thank you. That’s really beautiful. I’m so glad that that a little bit of the work we’ve done has been a small part of your blessing there. Well, this is wonderful. Would you be able to give a blessing to all of our listeners here through the good, proper use of technology here?

Bishop Conley:
Yes. Sure. Yeah. Technology’s not all bad. I’m not kind of dogging.

Dr. Greg:
Yes, of course.

Bishop Conley:
A lot of great things. So in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen. Through the intercession of the blessed Virgin Mary and all the Angels and Saints on this feast day of St. Luke, the divine position, may the Lord bless and heal you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen.

Dr. Greg:
Amen. Thank you so much.

Bishop Conley:
Thank you, Dr. Greg.

Dr. Greg:
Thanks for listening to the Being Human Podcast. If you’ve enjoyed this episode and wanna help us spread the word and hear more, please head over to iTunes, leave us a review, and subscribe, as it really helps us to get our content out to more people. Be sure to listen next time as I take you deeper into what it means to be human. If you want more free content and information about what we do at the Catholic Psych Institute, head on over to catholicpsych.com. God bless you.